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Tag Team Pokemon TCG Podcast
Tag Team Pokemon TCG Podcast

Season 4, Episode 2 · 3 months ago

4-2. The Pokematrix and How to Escape It

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

The boys have some hot hot takes regarding the events of the POG Championships and some recent movements in the scene. Don't miss out on this one if you enjoy spice!

Yo, what is up guys welcome back to tagteam took on Trading Card Games from mere podcasting duo? My name is RileyHubert joined, as always by my good good friend, Mister J, W cree wall jawhas a hang in. It is hanging well Riley. Thank you for asking yea it is it is.We are recording one day earlier, because tomorrow is a very special day. My birthday, it's arguably special okay, fair enough,fair enough, but my wife's a special to US yeah. That's right! That's right,special, maybe not to other people, but that's neither here nor there we'rerecording one day early such that I can go out to dinner with my wife tomorrowand then get back, and you know maybe I'll drink, a glass of wine orsomething out at the Italian restaurant I'll drink too. Many of those Iprobably won't well yeah we're super excited for Jew'sbirthday and he's got some surprises on the docket, according to his wife. Sowill be fascinated to hear about those. It's just one surprise and it could belike anything ranging from. I was trying to guess with her. I was like M:Is it a test ride of a test law because we have been talking about doing that?You know how you can like schedule or ride. You know and pretend, as ifyou're going to buy it, but then she said don't dress up for this. So then Iwas like okay, maybe it's some kind of outdoor activity like I really like tomini golf, so she you know I was. I was thinkingabout that and that would be you know twenty minutes away. Probably so, and Idon't have to get dressed up for that, but then she wouldn't say she said that it wasn't that so now,I'm kind of those are kind of the things I would automatically guess, butif I don't think it's either of those, Oh so we'll have to see, we will haveto see stat tns to learn more excite. That's right! How's your week, men, it's been pretty good man. All things considered, I mean it's justyou know rise and grind and as in graminal grind set, I know I guess truetrue. No, it's been good, though, how about you? It's been good, it's beengood, the you know it's the Labor Day the week ofLabor Day Yeah if you're listening to the future, so we had that extra dayoff in the week and man that is a huge, huge, refresher, yea every every weekshould be a three day weekend. I actually like really agree becausecoming back today I was, I was really motivated to work and it just it feltnice. Knowing that you know there's only like four days in a week, and Idon't know it's good. We ended up going to their studies on it that people thatare more productive yeah when they have more time. I mean it makes sense right.People are more corected when I have more time, but I went to King's island. Oh so that isa state O. my hometown, Oh yeah, Mason, I told it for God, yeahin Mason, of course, yeah. So King's island is a theme park like a CedarPoint Six flags type thing, and it was extremely fun there you go yeah. Haveyou the diamond back? Oh, the diamond back was the first ride. Yeah, I'dnever been there before. That was our first ride. It was great, is great, they just also they alsobuilt in two thousand and twenty, I think, just before the pandemic, thisGiga coaster called the Orion. I heard about them,building that yeah yeah and it's one of it's one of seven Giga coasters in theworld, and you ask what is a Giga coaster, and that is when the height isbetween three hundred feet and three hundred and ninety nine feet there yougo so it's one of seven in the world which I thought was a very fun stat andit was great and I rode that front seat wow ice. It was amazing, it was likethe it was one of the smoothest rides. I've ever had in a coaster like it was.It was unbelievable. I reminds me it reminded me of the first time that Iwrote Millennium Force like an sider point: Yeah Yeah it just like howsmooth it is yeah it was. It was a beautiful rideand I would go back and do it again in a heart. Beat that's awesome. Well,meanwhile, I was, I was at home and a friend did a Lord of the rings extendededition marathon on Fletch. That was so fun. I got shut o mid way through, likeyou can't be that kind of experience I mean it sounded like we both had prettyideal picturesque days. It was great, it was great and you know what there'splenty of other fun things that are happening all across the pokemon scene,including the pokemon online global championships. Gwo want to walk usthrough kind of how that ended up yeah. So we e had a couple of Japaneseplayers finish in the finals, which was...

...incredible to see, and we had a coupleof decks that you know one. We should see in thefuture in this Intelli ice rider deck that ended up winning and it can bevery you know very easily portable into the post rotation format, but thesecond place stick was Amy Tun me at p style deck, but just focusing around metube being able to copy a bunch of attacks and Galerian multis toaccelerate energy, so yeah really cool. Take there on the Muttu deck one of thesurprises from the pog champs were all the Lifindu and the Decidi deck, sograss really coming out in full for sleepy on, of course, being kind of thethe newcomer right in the evolving sky set so unproven. I suppose taking asignificant number of spots in the top thirty two and then decide as well justdoing very well on the back of nobody really accounting for it, exceptfor those Lafia players who built their deck to the decision. Yeah. True, true, all the US wereplaying like a Phebe Pal pad and the Italia, that's tough. Yes, that makesit very difficult, of course, and then yeah, but it was quite a quite aninteresting weekend and I think we saw a lot of good game play. I was able tocatch the stream for only a couple hours. It sounded like you watched it,maybe a little longer, but I saw some games with Hayden's dark box that wereinteresting saw some of the leafy on Games, so it was pretty nice. I thinkit was a good send off to the format and saw some you know again: New Decks olddeck and everything in between yeah. I mean, I think my favorite part of thewhole pog champ experience was you know that we got to see some ofthese, like Japanese players coming in and doing really. Well, I feel, likeyou know, a lot of these online tournaments are really catered around.The Americans or the European, so their schedule kind of plays around that andpog was very intentional about scheduling it in a way to try and makeit accessible to as many people as possible globally. Hence the name, Iguess the Global Championship and it was really cool to see the finals, bothbeing Japanese players who have, but in you know, a region, that's kind ofunderrepresented, I would say in online play yeah absolutely they're somewherearound seventy Japanese players that made dayto which, when you consider that day too was you know a hundred and eightyplayers, that's extremely impressive. So yeah, like you, said it is, there iskind of this culture divide between Jap, Japanese, tournaments and- and you know,I guess, North American- that's that's where we're you know stationed out of,but like between Japanese players and like, I guess, the rest of the world ina sense because they also have they also have different format, torment,structures to and different formats right. They play with a different setslegal different times. So it's just it's really cool to see. They always dowell at worlds and then here as close as we could get to world so againdominating the competition. I also, I think it was really cool as well thatthere was so much mutuam in this event, like a lot of dark box, a lot of justmiscellaneous YouTube meudax if it felt kind of Nice, I guess, like I feel,like Mutius the Quinosti Tag, team of all tag teams, so being able to getthat last representation before rotation is kind of cool, sure sure oneof the more skill based tag teams for sure yeah. SoI agree with you- is nice to see it populating a lot of a lot of the daytoo. I will say I think you touched on this last week as well. I definitelyunderestimated speunce, yes, and I don't see a reason that itwouldn't continue to be good. Yeah sweeten is just like one of those cardsthat is not going to blow you away with how strong it is, but it's always goingto be a super yeasaid yeah yeah. Those are the cards thatthat sneak under the radar. I think sometimes, oh absolutely absolutely I'mlooking forward to seeing that kind of ice writer sweet con. You know antellen kind of deck. Continue to do well in the future yeah, it was areally interesting Combo right, because you have sweet con to kind of get goingand maybe set up some. You know a little bit of damage here and there andit's a two prizer that could you know, hit for hit for just little chink,chunks and and so same thing. You know he followed up with the ice writersright and then they're doing the t and fifty right so finishing off what whatthe sweet coon started. So I like that, a lot cooli should pour it over verywell and to post rotation and we'll see...

...how people you know factor that in to to the metagame and stuff so yeahabsolutely. Is there anything else? Like kind of you know, the format itself of theevent is I mean by the time most people are listening to this. It's probablyalready rotated. Is there anything in particular that you want to comment onfrom the event? And you know the actual game play that came out of it? Well, I didn't watch a ton of the gameplay because I was you know off busy doing half stuff but yeah. I can't speak entirely to youknow what went on. I watched some of the stream and again the dark boxeswere very interesting. The Times that I saw those on and yeah I just. I is interesting to seethese cards that you know we have a little bit of ink about right and youknow you're playing on the ladder and you're like Oh man. Why can't everybodyplay post rotation decks but then, just to see I don't know, the possibilitiesof the format was really cool. I mean I've been a dark box stand from day one.So there you go in it. Kind of emerging force was fun. I would say you know ifI have one piece of advice as someone who maybe is listening and it's aboutto be or rotation has happened and you're looking at kind of like the thepog champs and you're like okay. What do I get from this? I would take a lookat any of the decks that played in Telian and most of those can be portedover very cleanly into post rotation format. So they're great, like startingpoint for how to get started. Yeah absolutely like the lipins. I think itleavin particular writers, the Shes, a yeah, it's very cool cool, so I do think we have to talk about acertain event from the event, and that would be the the disqualification ofLuke Marsa on the allegation that he was being youknow, kind of coached, mid stream due to having conversations with his withhis mother during his game, play Jus. Another background that you want to hiton before we kind of dive into this. Well, what I got some extra Intel fromboth Luke and Neil, who was, if not the head judge, at least one of the hedge,I believe, was the head judge of the event and- and so you know I'll sharesome of that as we go on, but just want to say out of the out of thegates. Luke wasn't the only player disqualified? Now I don't know who theother ones were, but I do know that in day too, there were other players DCfor having somewhat similar situations. Obviously Luke you know streaming hisgame playing, and you know talking with his mom, like is very much for everyoneto see right in the most publicized and and the highest finisher right is asright for sure. So, there's a lot of a lot of drama surrounding that, and Ithink it'd be good to good to talk about that. Okay, so to a we kind of have we havethe ground work laid out there. So you know, Luke had had been playingeven playing the life on deck. He ended up finishing in the top. Sixteen andafter the event had concluded, the judge team had decided that adisqualification was in order due to you know the breaking of Play Poker onguidelines around coaching, mid game, so J B, maybe would start from one ofthose perspectives and and work our way down, and then we can start giving ourown thoughts interjected in there sure so luke. I asked him a little bit. Youknow. I asked him about you know: Did they give you a warningkind of? Why do you think they d you? When they did, you know, do you feellike the judges acted? You know with bias or anything and pretty much theanswers. I got back where you know I feel like they did. What was in theinterest of like t e, the official TPI rule book, so that was, I think, statedin the event description as kind of the law of the land and, with a number ofyou know, reputable judge sources, it makes sense right that they're notgoing to necessarily cater to the online environment and try to keepeverything as as within the rules as possible. So you know look says here. You know, I believe that going into thesituation, they said whatever we find we're going to base it on the black andwhite rules of the game, and then they did just that. I agree that by thosestandards I should be dcted is what Luke says the issues that other online games. Ithink we should assume everyone has outside resources or advantages andallow coaching to take place at the risk of the player, taking bad advice or beingtoo distracted, so look kind of says...

...here that he thinks maybe this should be allowedto a degree just that it's kind of you know risk and reward in the sense thatyou can receive advice, but maybe that advice would be pretty. You know bad insome cases right and so just to allow that kind of allow that to happen isjust going to be the environment of the online game, so that was that wasluke's. You know take I get the impression that he was a little bit. You know kind of, certainly when ithappened and like, I think, certainly when he got the asterisk instead of hisname on the final standings. I think his you know take took an in stride forsure, but a little bit I got the feeling that it was a little bit. Hewas a little questioning or maybe not not, maybe not upset, but certainlythis is one of yeah unhappy. I mean this, as you know. He put a lot of workinto this finish and like it probably one of probably one of his bestfinishes, I think, like I'm all time right like in terms of starting from zero and then workingyour way into the top. Sixteen of this you know thousand person tournament socertainly certainly want that want that reward of at least you knowbeing in the final standings right. So you know I get the impression that itwas just kind of like a. This is unfortunate. I understand why ithappened, but I wish it didn't happen. This way kind of, I sure yeah I mean, and it's I think it's asomewhat valid perspective, given the fact that I can say with utmost certainty thatmany players can and do use discord during their games, they stream totheir friends. They talk to them. I don't know if I necessarily agree withthis logic that, like you, it's like counteracted by bad advice or beingdistracted. I don't think that's the angle of attack that you need to takethere right. You know, I think, more realisticallywe're looking at different spaces if you're going to make that argument, youhave to say you know, the online sphere isn't isn't the same as real life andshouldn't adhere to the same exact rule set yeah and there's a lot to impactthere, and I think let's talk a little bit about go in Dil judges perspective.So this is Neil. This is the termen organizer for the Sunday open and thenalso one of if not the head, judge for the pod championships and says here. There was a great deal of disagreementamong the judges in this regard, and this is quoting verbatim from Neil. Thediscussion took quite some time and became heated so just kind ofindicating that you know, even though the judges eventually came out with adecision, it wasn't necessarily one that everyone agreed with. We don'tnecessarily know why they, you know what the different reasonings were. Ido have meals kind of reasoning here, but he you know didn't want to speakfor other people. So I completely respect that here right, let's see,although I'm not passing the buck, I was pushing hard that it was againstthe rules and I think ye against the official rules that were in theoriginal post for how the tournament was run. I think Neil has a really goodunderstanding that you know. Rules are rules andeverything should adhere to those rules and now moving forward. Maybe there'ssome opportunity to ch change those rules or modify thoserules in a way that accommodate for the online environment in a way that wehaven't yet previously done. I think that's overall a good thing, but let'slet me continue here saying once it was decided that it was in factagainst the rules of the tournament, whether or not you like them or not.They determined that you know Luke discussing with his mother was againstthe rules. He says I informed Luke personally about the report and thatthere would be an investigation taking place. I mentioned this only because Irecall that it was immediately after he had completed his final round that Ihad to reach out to them, and so they didn't know about this until after thetournament was over, hence the DK. So he goes on to say that, let's see, he goes on to say that ifsomething had happened in an earlier or you know, if that same interaction hadbeen pointed out in an earlier round to the judge team that they may not havebeen as harsh on Luke, which I also find somewhatinteresting, but a little more understandable right, they could havereached down and said Hey. This is a warning or maybe taking a lesser. Butstill you know severe penalty such as you know, a game, loss or prize penalty orsomething like that to kind of counteract what they thought were. Youknow was a breach of the rules, so I think that's pretty interesting as well yeah and I think, there's some stuff toim pact there as well, and I think...

...maybe we'll be able to kind of put ourminds at least our takes into their. You know looking at both theseperspectives. Do you know we? I had stopped us beforethe cast from talking too much about this, because I wanted to us to kind ofhave that kind of candid experience, but it is kind of odd, and we hadmentioned that you know the level of penalty may havechanged depending on when this was reported. It sounds like a man. motingof the disqualification was the fact it was. You know, post event, post finalround big. You know that to me doesn't necessarilydrive a hundred percent right. You know, because, if we're going strict, if, ifthe rule book, the handbook is the rule of God in this scenario, then that'scheating, right and cheating is a disqualification right like you, don't let it cheatercontinue to play right right, yeah exactly so that to me, doesn't reallyvibe either and it's like. Are we or are we not following a certain set of rules? Yeah? It's it's very interesting thereyeah because, like you said, I mean if we take if we take, who we're talkingabout out of the picture and we're just talking about a nameless, facelessperson like if it's deemed that they were cheating which it was like. Thejudge team came to the conclusion that you know: Luke was cheating. Okay,whether or not you agree with that. That's irrelevant they determined tobuy the TPI rule book for tournament play that Luke had been cheating, soyou know that that's not like an indication of his character by anymeans, because I don't necessarily think it was. You know you know with with ill intent thatthat's regan. That's not that's! Not What we're talking about here, we'rejust talking about whether or not it was cheating by the PC. I guidelinesthey determined it was, and so, if it was, then what should be thatappropriate? You know final outcome and we're kind ofthinking like well. You know if it was found in round to like of a impersonalike that. You know. Luke was getting coached during the game right, becausethat was the exact situation that he found himself in like if Luke wasgetting coach during the game. That would be a breach, and that wouldbe a disqualification from the tournament everything removed, like you,wouldn't be able to play on. So the fact that there was deemed this. Youknow this cheating allegation by the judge team and that they, you know kindof and almost essentially let him finish the tournament by being includedin the final standings. It's just very it's very interesting ruling and Ididn't get any clarification from Neil on that in specific, but yeah. That just seems very. It seemslike a interesting compromise for the allegation. I guess we could say right.I was actually kind of disappointed that his name wasback on the standing, not because I wanted Celio to be excluded. In fact, Iwatched much of his stream during that day and we enjoyed it, but more so because I feel like if itwas a random person who had been caught on their two viewer stream or somethingor you know, their friend reported discord. screenshot or whatever thatthat random person would not have gotten that level of outreach and thatperson would still be off of the standings to me. It feels like we'rewe're retreating, our judgment based on community backlash, because ultimately,a DC means that you're moved from the standings right like there's, not amiddle ground there so effectively. He was undecent by having his name putback on the standings yeah so like. If it was random, I guess I'msaying if it was random person XYZ, I don't think random person. Xi's namewould be back on the standings. I yeah you're kind of yeah, you're kind ofsaying, like there's, maybe a little bit of of bias in the fact that you know Idon't necessarily think so is biased towards Luke. I think it's the factthat community respects in and like Luke, and so they made an outrage aboutit right and then we responded to the outrage. Instead of sticking to ourguns saying this is the call that we made. It was cheating in the context ofthis event, and that thing you know and will work yeah and that's it. I I mean,I think the judge staff did a a generally good job, actually a reallygood job of not actually caving into pressure other than you know like wesaid like the standard, the final standings, which again in the grandscheme of things like, isn't really a big deal, but then it just raises somequestions, and not it just. I think in no two in general, this is like noteven a slam is in a slam on the judge team, isn't a slam on Luke. This isjust saying. I personally believe you need to stick to your calls right. Likeyeah, you know, if that, if you made the right call which they worked as ajudge teeam and decided that they, that...

...was the right call, and it was by the rule, look that theyused Yep. What's the what's the problem right like the prom, the discussionshould should never have been, should luke be DC in the context of this eventthat the discussion should be. Is the rule book has written appropriate foronline play right right, and that is. That is the question moving forward.Absolutely, and I mean my answer is- is no it's not. I think Luke does bring avalid point. He used kind of he fumbled in logic a little bit I think gettingthere, but he does bring the valid point that anyone playing online willinherently unless you do like like a test. proctoring thing like you knowhow you can proctor tests and have ye right right unless you do somethinglike that. Inevitably someone will have a resource that someone else doesn't.We saw this with stream sniping. We saw this with the coaching and we're goingto continue to find ways around this. I mean you know what have you people can dothings when they have access to a computer that they can not. They can'tdo in hers when they're person you know so ultimately, there needs to be some sort of shift.In my opinion, we see a lot of the commentaries and I feel like so much ofthe community was using the wrong logic to get there right there, I'm a little,I will say I'm a little disappointed with some of the discourse that cameout of his full situation, much horrible discourse. It was like itcan't be yeah because I do it. Yes, that is that was that was take time Isaw I saw it, take where it's like. Well, I get a discord, but we don'treally talk about the game. It's like. Where are you yeah? That's now? What's the point of this right?Rightlie people were saying bizarre stuff, like really. Let's stop saying that the questionshould be the question shouldn't be whetheryou're not you're in discord as well. At the previous event, it should bewhether you should be allowed to in the next one. Yes, yes, and I think thatthis whole situation, you know it further enhances like that. I almostwant to say, like the need for Irl play to come back eventually like we can'tjust exist in this online sphere, because they're just there's a lot ofproblems and then now we're also answering questions about like well.Why don't they hold, like? You know, CP tournaments, on peg, like you're. Thisis literally why he a like fundamental questions that need to be answered.Yeah Yeah, so I think I think going forward like do you want to promote theculture of it's fine to cheat as long as you're not caught, and I think theanswer is no for that because, like I think- and this goes back to like whyit's a little head scratching- that they didn't take a harsher stance onLuke and, like you know again, the Astros like keeping them out of theranks like because, if you want to you know because at that point likeLuke's playing for you know top. Sixteen is getting like what likeseventy five dollars or something like you're, basically playing for cloud.Okay and the cloud that, like you, know seriously and like the crack, I meannot that amount of time is not worth seventy five dollars to me. No, it isnot. It is objectively, not, and so you know you're playing for clap like, andso he didn't even get a punishment for that like for cheating, he didn't evenlose the cloud that you know it's just a weird situation right and so likeshot T, we promote that. Should the community think that it's okay to cheat-and I think the answer is no like we should take a very hard stance in thejudges- should be harsh on this. I think, to the extent that they can is like, ifthere is cheating, then it should be disqualification like. I think thatshould be a very hard line stance and I'm very in favor of it and, like youknow it does this mean that you know maybe streamers have to be out of thelay or maybe they have to go into sublet to ask you know subscriber areto emo witch Chamo. You know that that gets a little grey and, like sure thereare great areas about this, because it's it's new, it's different. It's notyou know in the rule book like there's some gray areas about this, but fromwhat I gather from other Games. You know there is this kind of you know, pseudo, policing that you cando on a on a twitch chat, so you know emoton ly mode or a delay or somecombination of the two to kind of lessen the advantage that you would getas a streamer, but yeah I mean in a re. If you're tryingto be really competitive, you should have a a delay right, yeah yeah, atleast it. If I kind of integrity is like the main goal, I think I saw I sawan interesting take from from my Zachal, where it was you know,a streamer who's playing in a in a tournament has two responsibilitieslike two hats that they're wearing they have their entertainer hat and theyhave their playerr hat and his take as...

...a judge is that the player hatch shouldalways be the one that takes priority. You know because ultimately, you're aplayer in that event, and you should be equally contributory to the thecompetitive environment of that event as any other player and have the samestandards, be helped to you, yeah yeah yeah. I mean to to an extent I agreeright because, like we don't want to necessarily discourage content creation,because I think Pokemon, just in general, is so devoid of content.Creators like just generally speaking, I would say we are generally devoid ofcontent creators, and so I don't want to discourage people from streaming their matches. I think that'sgenerally a good thing and actually, in some ways promotes more transparencyfor the game right, because because, if they're streaming, like generally you're, not going to knowthat they're on a discord or it's going to be very hard to be on a discord,call and stream without people knowing about it, you know- and there are a few otherkind of you know- benefits of that like you just get to see, see physically andyou get to experience it with them, and so it's going to be easier to see. Ifthere's any kind of you know it foul play going on, but yeah, I think wewould both be an agreen that it just I don't know for for competitiveintegrity, and I think, just for events moving forward. I just feel like goingwith that hard line stance as yeah like you said, player firstshould be upheld and maybe it's just a facade. Maybe it's just a facade, but Idon't think we should. As a community say you know what look did was fine andlike hey, you know, I can jump. I should be able to jump on a discordcall like we should have that kind of those voices out there saying like no,that's that's wrong, like even if you're playing alone in thesetournaments, like that, that's kind of shady- and you know you shouldn't bedoing that like we should, I think, hold that as the standard and if peopledo it like we're, not going to be able to police it, but we shouldn't havevoices out there very prominent voices, I might add saying yeah everybody doesit. So it's fine and we should just abolish all of the all the regulations surrounding it.That just boggles my mind. To be honest, I think, because the fact that it's unenforceable itshould just be allowed, but that should be a rule right that you can. You canlike talk to your friend in a ER game. I think, if it's not, if it's defined ashooting, we should take the hard stance and treat it as cheating. I think I think it is if it's defined as beingallowed, then I'm totally cool at that, and I actually think that is maybe moreappropriate, because what I think is unfair, is you know when you throw these people,and everyone has like a different expectation for what they're allowed tobe doing. You know you right people who are like. Oh I'm going to be. I justwore a call with twenty people and you know Eastre Ming, so it's not a bigdeal and then you have people who are like. Oh well, that's not allowed. SoI'm going to be completely on my own out here and I'm not even going to likeGoogle a card see what interactions it has or something like that right, rightand and of course my stance is coming from. You know again if it's outlinedin the rules. As being you know, like T pc, I guidelines, but I don't know eventhen, like I almost feel like we should be having these tournaments under youknow kind of like mother, mother, rule book, you know I just I don't thinkreal life and online can ever be one to one. You know, and you see this- yousee this in like magic and hear stone as well, where you know people do getcoached like during tournaments, but that's yeah and a loud thing. That's inus, I'm sure of the loud sure sure you know, even in the team challenge likethat is explicitly something that happened in the team challenge.Obviously, is a team based event, but you know allowed for that extra. Idon't know for the actual some something to be like includedinherently into the event structure. Well, actually, with the team challenge,I was talking with Nel about this. That team play was explicitly not allowed.Well, then, there's a lot of ringers who, during qualifiers duringqualifiers, ah during qualifiers, yeah, I anyway either way, though I think I think we kind of get into a conclusion,though, that rules should be followed and should beenforced to the appropriate letter of the law and intent of the letter of thewords behind those letters, but I'm still pretty hard line that,like real life and online, can't exist in the exact same definition. Sure- and I don't know if you aged that ornot, but that's definitely my stance. I do. I think I'm always going to be anidealist and think. Like Oh yeah, you know I like I don't cheat or I I don'tknow I...

I maybe I have maybe I mean I guessI've played tournaments where I've had chat not on a delay so like I guess I'mguilty as well, but like I also don't think I well anyway, but yeah it's you know incidently.Ultimately, it brings up a really good conversation about how to progressforward. I just think it's we get into really dangerous territory, especiallywhen we go back to on in real life play of like yeah cheating, you know, orgoing against, like TPI rule book and Code of conduct and is a good thing orencouraged right to do well like. I think that sets a very dangerouspresident for just like into the future, and that's why I am hesitant to allowor to say like yes, we should allow you know, or we should explicitly allow discord, calls, and you know coaching and things like that.It just it feels very slippery feels very slippery,especially when we, you know, hopefully get back to irl play some time soon and,like you know, or even in like local leagues or like the Full Grouptournaments like it just feels it feels sketchy to me. You know to say like yes,this should be something that happens. I don't know it just. I think it justbecause like Pokemon, okay- and this is a bigger thing too, is like I've beenplaying for ten years. Pokemon develops a culture of players, and I think thatthat is objectively true. If you look at the game of Pokemon versus the Gameslike magic, the gathering in Yukio Pokemon has a culture, and I think thatthat culture should be upheld to whatever degree it can be even in anonline space. So because of that, and that's what makes poem on special andunique and that's what keeps me coming back in a lot of ways- is this cultureand so to take that culture and because we have ovid almost throw it out thewindow and say like that's, not valued. That feels disingenuous to me to likethe core principles of the game. So that's really why I, when I hear youknow, cheating should be allowed or like thiskind of conduct should be allowed like that really makes me well, I think,you'll trust very careful like saying cheating should be allowed because wellright and then it's a tent is that it's not supposed yeah. Of course, of course,of course I understand, but it just said. I do think. Ultimately, TAC team is righton this. Everyone else O, but really I just. I think, though themain point I want to drive home is that's. This is the discourse we shouldbe. Having is we should be talking about what should the online space bedefined as and how should that you know? Where is that going to be written andhow are we going to follow and enforce that? It should not be. My friend wasdisqualified or content creator I follow is just qualified, so I'm goingto throw a fit about it. Yeah you have to you have to be more objective andreasonable than that yeah. I agree so anyway. It's I feel like, as you know, my take isespecially problematic. I think I'll. I'm sure I'll hear some some comments about it. After the castthere, you go, but there you and you know, have an opinion. I would say thatas well like have an opinion on this, because it's pretty important in my inadeveloped one too, though, oh well, true, no, no, like don't just don't just spitout what we say. Don't just say a certain thing, because a certaincontent creator says one thing or another like actually think about this.Think about what you want for the game ye and come with your opinion. That'sthat's a good point to is like what do you want for the game? What do you wantthe game to look like, and I guess there's some like team collaborativeaspect to it. That's kind of interesting to you know look at, but Idon't know I just just feels feels dirty what we do never know what you donow d. what's that Chicara? I do yes. Yes, let's move on card of the day. You know this. One is kind of it kindof feels like cheating, okay, this one kind of feels like cheating, becauseyou get to look at their punic Yeah Yeah Yeah I've become the cheater because I lovethis card back in the day you get to look at your opponent's hand and you can do something with it. Lovethat for you, what do you think you get to do? Take all the trainer cars and shufflethem into the deck? Oh, not quite not quite keep going, I'm trying to think what other cardslike interact with your pones hand, and you actually look at it. Just discardan energy card. You find there- oh, not quite okay, so this is this. Is theportrait smirke allows you to choose a supporter card? You find there as aPoka power and use to effect, yeah yeah, it usual. The effect of this card isthe effect of this power, so you can like back in the day. This was so o. Itwas such a funny card because you...

...didn't know whether it was going to begood or bad like it was generally a good card right it, like eighty percentof the time that clarifyings you had to use a supporter. Yes, yes, yes, yes, soso you had to use a supporter off this Poko power. If you use mergle and- andso there was, there was like an eighty percent chance at the card that youfound. The supporter card, in your opponent's hand, was a good one, or atleast you'd have a choice right. There's pokey collector back in the day,which was a very common target from portrait, but there are also thingslike n or Professor Oaks, new theory, which would shelfer your hand back inand draw a certain number of cards which you might not have wanted becauseyou were looking for. You know something or they also had professors,research or, I guess the fact they re a professor juniper at the time, and sothat would discard your hand. So it's like, oh no. There were times where theo all my importance to exactly exactly where you're kind of body by a portraityou're like Oh man, I'm hoping for a collector. I wait. I had to you, knowresearch away, all my rare candies and stuff yeah. It was high risk. I rewardin some cases and really a fun card to play with, because the other thing tooabout mergo is that you could use multiple so like you could go oncemiracol portrait and you found you know, professor a mot theory, and so youshove your hand in get six, and then you could like retreat into anothersmear goal. Portrait again now they have professor a theory shuffling andget six. You know retreated to another SMAGA. Do it against you could see. Youknow eighteen cards in a turn or more with your portrait plus your ownsupporter, so it kind of a way. Tho, I s ever s an well it wasn't. Even anobility is a poke of power sure so, but yeah it was. It was super funny andI just loved that it was like on a n, a lesser played car or a lesser playedpokemon like spear. Gol is just very forgotten I feel like, but to give itsuch a cool pokoole that belonged in almost almost everydeck around that time was really neat. Yeah Porchaire is goaded for sureanswer, reas looking card to it's so fun, it's so fun! That's a that's! AGOOD! Kick! That's a good thick! I was thinking I ketis and team yogaismrockets. What which one was that ere youdescribed on the hand yeah it wasn't t team, Yo grins from the field teamrockets grunt it was he scaltra. Yes, there we go. Thank youten types there you thank. You Ten fithers too many teams now man, truetrue, I'm getting old, that's right, awesome, awesome stuff! So our lasttopic for today, as promised last week, we wanted to talk about the objective,Jack and kind of give our thoughts on it as a tool. So for the uninitiated.The objective deck is a website that just came out. We had. I forget, I forget the the Nice fellowsnamed Mikey Mike, was a status tician, he's very interested in how to kind oflike apply antip quantify like a pot infamatio to no them on, and you know kind of level up the gameplay that we have available to us. So He created this tool that, basically,what it does is it parses your tg o logs and it finds out certaininformation about the game, such as like how many cards you drew like howmany energy you attached for us, how many knockouts you took versus how muchdamage you did and kind of averages those the I think the real youcan do it on a single game, but the idea is that you average it over anaggregator games and can start to get find some trail information about. Youknow how your deck does and wins versus losses, yeah and kind of figure outwhere you make adjustments from there so job, I'm curious. You know we talkedabout doing this the other week, so I'm sure you have thoughts. What are yourinitial impressions on the tool? I think it's overall good. I would saythat with any sort of data driven tool like this, that it doesn't guaranteeperformance because of course you have to have your in game play, be good andlike if you're uploading, bad game logs, like you know, you're just going to getbodied, you know because it's going to tell you results that are notconsistent with. You know what what should actually happen right if you'remis playing and you upload that Game Log? Well, you know you're kind of boneor like. Similarly, if your Pone misplays and you upload that log well,you know, say same issue right you're having kind of a conflict there, but Iwill say overall good tool. However, you know the the kind of data drivenidea. You know popularized by like the the movie money ball and that whole IOakland athletics. You know...

...data driven, you know player performance.They never want a world series with that model. So, like it's not it, youknow. I think the there were a few things that I was seeing on twitterwere it's like. Oh, you know this is going to change the game. It's going toit's gonna, you know, revolutionize the game and, and some players were evenkind of heralding it as a way to you know like almost save themselves. Youknow and- and I think to it agree- that's true, but change. The game, I think, is a littlehigher praise, like I'm very excited for this tool and the opportunitiesthat it presents to players, and I think one thing that you're going tosee. That's a very obvious data point that is good to look at is winpercentage going first or second, I think that will be for a lot of players,yeah a very important piece of data that they can pick out for their testing and so yeah. I wasactually going to specifically reference that data point as well. Ithink that yeah, that might be the most useful one on the page, so I have a couple of takes and I'mgonna I'm going to go through the ill. First answer a question and chat. So interms of data types there's, basically, I can run through the basically thewhole subset of them. There is basically cards drawn. There's amountof energy attached there's amount of times that you attacked and what turnyou started, attacking how much damage you did, how heknockouts he took, and then it kind of did some like some mathematics on theaverages of those or like how those relate to each other. So you have likeenergy efficiency, which is kind of like how many energy you attachedversus you know the Knocka that you took to win the game stuff like thatyeah. So, but basically it takes those mainlike core data points and then does some math against those in differentways. So my first take is that I think thisis as as it is designed right now. It is a more useful tool for a new playerthan an experienced player. Sure I think a lot of these data points can be kind of extrapolated or positedjust from having like kind of a fundamental knowledge of the game. So agood example of that is in the introduction. Video they use shadowrider is kind of like a dummy deck that they they ran. Some games on and postedthe logs for shadow rider when you win games has badenergy efficiency, because you attach a lot of energy right does not mean youshould change the deck because you were drawing more cards by attaching energy,which is what is letting you in the game right right right. Another exampleis you know, cards drawn like you, canpretty reasonably pause it with a deck like shadow, rider, Riqueza or any deck,really that you were likely drawing more cards in the Games that you wentright at her necessarily directly relate to your game play. It just means that the gamesthat you win, you are turbin through your deck, more you're, seeing morestuff right. You have access to more of yourdeck yeah. The data point that I think isparticularly useful is is the first versus second, because I think that'ssomething. A lot of people lack clarity on right now, yes- and I think that'sthe thing that that even experienced players could benefit from is thatparticular data point. I think some of the things like energy efficiency, likeenergy, acceleration kind of missed the mark for me like I can. I canextrapolate pretty quickly- that shadow rider and sentio with welder and darkbox, accelerate more energy to the board than er she fu right or have like worse, energy efficiencyor whatever that to me, isn't like super meaningful Ra. What I wish thedebt? What I wish this I offered, and I hope that they continue to enhance it,because I think the idea is good. I think that data is more applicable to acard game than to you know, baseball or yes, yeah sure is I like how the cards relate to eachother right, like an example, I was talking about with my friend today thatI think would be really interesting would be like if you turn one researchfor US turn one Marni which, which one wins you more games, sure you know how many of your knockouts aretaken with bosses orders versus like knocking out what's in the active surelike those are things that I'm interested in that. I think you couldstill isolate from a game log, but need to be like more explicitly built out, so I think there's like lots ofenhancements that still need to be made for the tool to truly be where it needsto be, as it stands right now. I think a lot of this could be done with likegood tracking of your testing right, where you like, keep your sped. She andlike say if you went, did this that or whatever and and if you ever lost Y, a kind of likewe typically do like leading up to...

...world championships or large events, but I do think the first or second ispretty useful. So over all my points, I think there's a lot of enhancement tobe made. There's a lot of interesting data points that aren't captured in thedata set right now I do another. One of my takes is that Ido agree. The data is kind of like corrupted so to speak by you know,maybe sem ofthe Mo game play or even like you know, concessions things likethat, like a concession like messes up the data right, because the game ebeing completed like you need to get every game through completion, yeahyeah, that's another thing too right because, like a baseball game, isn'tending early for the most part, a right so but but a game that, because thereare a lot of times right where an opponent concedes too early. You see itall the time on the ladder and of course you know you could always can'tconcede right like if you know you're in a losing position, but you want toget the data you need to like keep laying right right, that's all so to eat thegame, but then, like you're, also getting less data points so yeah. No, Imean, of course, like it's going to be the most useful in a in a competitivesetting right where you're, taking those data points from you know, ttournament, winds or losses. But yeah, like you said, there's I mean there'salways going to be issues with with any data, and so we'll just have to seejust how much the tool gets used and I hope it does how much the tool getsused to give. You know community wide feedback right, because hopefully thisproject is just not an individual based project, because it would be reallynice to see by a similar thing, not only it would be. You know nice to seenot only like your results, but your results paired with you know the massesof results and like even maybe- and this is kind of difficult to do, butcertainly possible, like breaking it down into certain match. UPS, you knowgoing first, second, a certain match of certain Tech Cards in certain decks,which lime list kind of has as well, but I think that's what the tool needs,though, is it needs to have that son of sort of like more discreet analysis, toget it all the way there like it needs to analyze how the cards relate to eachother yeah exactly there exactly. So as it stands, summary of my takes, thedata could potentially be bad as a lot of confounding factors if not analyzeproperly know how to read data like know how to interpret data as well. Ifyou're going to use this tool like don't take every single number at facevalue like bigger number, better, that's not always true right, it's better for new players as a standsright now, and I really really hope that they kind of use it to like aggregate dataor not just at the individual level, but taking a lot of people's data andlike compiling it and figuring out something larger and more meaningfulfrom a larger set yep. Absolutely so those are kind of my, I think, there'sa lot of potential there and honestly. I wish they would kind of like it'd, begreat if they did like an application like I, they could scrape your logs inreal time or or open or made it open source. So likepeople could you know, make their own kind of queries right like if I wantedto write a queery for Sycamore versus Marni on turn, one like I could maybedo that like. I think, there's so much potential there, and so I think it's agood idea, but it's not all the way already needs to be to be like the mostuseful tool. Yeah totally completely agree awesome. I'm I wanted to say thatI want to talk through that after I saw the video, so I have I. This is a like my main thoughts comingout of it, but I do give lots of props to my key, especially in hisdevelopment team, for like actually developing a reasonable web tool. You know relatively short time frame, Imean for the most part. It can't hurt. You know any of those tools like it. Itcan't hurt. I mean I guess, there's a there's. A weird alternate world where,like the data is, is being skewed so much by the players that they actuallythink that you know worse plays are better. You know like perhaps that thatcould work like, because you also have to think like the general masses ofplayers. Like do people generally play. You know people don't generally playperfectly right. So how does that affect things? A will that mostly yeahyeah, but I mean it's just an interesting thought right like ifeverybody's chooses to go second, if everyone chooses to go second just outof habit, then that's going to influence the data, because all of thedata games are going to be people going a second you know. So it's just it'svery interesting and I'll be interest interested to see how it plays out o what a non commital answer. It isvery, not commitally, but it can't hurt. I mean it's going to be a generallygood tool like we said those few data points I think are going to beimmediately helpful and then, as they build the side out more, which we bothhope they do should be able to gain some more insight. You know, I think you know getting at the the dquite deck.I really just think we need to take sixty cards or Ponto. Take Sixty cars,we run it through a computer simulation that plays a millionn like optimalgames back and forth, and whichever...

...deck one more is the better deck andthat way yeah. I think that would be actually a really interesting formatfor a tournament. If, if I you know, if objective deck ever gets to that pointwhere they can run those kinds of simulations of dex, that would be veryinteresting to see that like, where the a tournament entirely on Meta gamingright, because you could never actually you know if you never if you tookplaying out of the equation. What would that look like, I think, that'd befascinating? I think it's. I think. That's the only way that pokemon cancan be here, for you take the player out of it, the logical yeah, thelogical end game is just entirely deck, building and Metagami. I think that would be fun in its ownway. That would be really fun yeah. I hope we get there well, I thank you all so much forlistening today. It's been an awesome episode of TAG team. If you like thisepisode or if he didn't be sure to write and review on your favoritepodcasting platforms and w work, and they find us, they can find us twitchthat TV munner every Wednesday night we're recording on Tuesday. so forgiveus for that, but every Wednesday night, at nine thirty it every time we saysame time, Stelae the week before we do it there's a different time and then they can they can find theycan find me a witch o TV flex, deady Rightes, for more game play. They canalso find us on twitter at taxi pokemon for the podcast andthen at smiles of riles and at Real John Walter Awesome. Well, you all are the best. Weappreciate every single one of you who listens every single week or if youlisten for the first time or if you're sporadic listener, we appreciate all ofyou and we will catch you all next time face to you. I.

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