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Tag Team Pokemon TCG Podcast
Tag Team Pokemon TCG Podcast

Season 4, Episode 2 · 4 months ago

4-2. The Pokematrix and How to Escape It

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

The boys have some hot hot takes regarding the events of the POG Championships and some recent movements in the scene. Don't miss out on this one if you enjoy spice!

Yo, what is up? Guys? Welcome back to tag team Pokemon, trading card games for me, orpodcasting duo. My name is Riley Hulbart, joined as always by my good,good friend Mr JW Curry. Wall JW has a hanging. It ishanging. Well, Riley, thank you for asking. Yeah, there's itis. We are recording one day earlier because tomorrow is a very special day, my birthday. It's arguably special. Okay, fair enough, fair enough, but my wife special at us? Yeah, that's right, that's right, special. Maybe not other people, but that's neither here nor there.We're recording one day early such that I can go out to dinner with mywife tomorrow and then get back and, you know, maybe I'll drink aglass of wine or something out at the Italian restaurant. I'll drink too manyof those, I probably won't. Well, yeah, we're super excited for GW'sbirthday and he's got some surprises on the docket, according to his wife, so we'll be fascinated to hear about those. It's just one surprise andit could be like anything, ranging from I was trying to guess with heras like, HMM, is it a test dride of a Teslaw, becausewe have been talking about doing that. You know how you can like schedulea ride, you know, and pretend as if you're going to buy it. But then she said don't dress up for this. So then I waslike, okay, maybe it's some kind of outdoor activity, like I reallyliked a mini golf. So she you know, I was. I wasthinking about that and that would be, you know, twenty minutes away,probably so, and I don't have to get dressed up for that. Butthen she wouldn't say. She said that it wasn't that. So now I'mkind of those are kind of the things I would automatically guess. But ifI don't think it's either of those. So we'll have to see. Wewill have to see. Stay tuned to learn. More excited to that's right. How's your week been? It's been pretty good, man, all thingsconsidered. I mean it's just, you know, rise and grind and it'sin Grassam signalmail grinds it. I know it. Yes, true, true, no, it's it's been good, though. How about you? It'sbeen good. It's been good. The you know, it's the Labor Day, the week of Labor Day. Yeah, I feal listening in the futures.So we had that extra day off in the week and man, thatis the huge, huge refresher. Yeah, every every week should be a threedayweekend. I actually like really agree because coming back today I was Iwas really motivated to work and it just it felt nice knowing that, youknow, there's only like four days in a week and I don't know,is good. We ended up going on to their studies on it. Thatpeople that are more productive. Yeah, when they have more time. Imean it makes sense, right, people are more productive when I have moretime. But I went up to King's island. Oh, so that isa status in my hometown. Oh, yeah, Mason. I told it. Forgot. Yeah, in Mason, of course. Yeah, so kingsisland is a theme park, like a Cedar Point Six flags type thing,and it was extremely fun. There you go. Yeah, I have youever the diamond back? All, the diamond back was the first ride.Yeah, I'd never been there before. That was our first ride. Itwas great, as great they just also, they also built, in two thousandand twenty, I think, just before the pandemic, this Giga coastercalled the Orion. I heard about them building that. Yeah, yeah,and it's one of it's one of seven Giga coasters in the world. Andyou ask what is a Giga coaster, and that is when the height isbetween three hundred feet and three hundred and ninety nine feet. There you go. So it's one of seven in the world, which I thought was avery fun stat and it was great and I rode that front seat. Wowise, it was amazing. It was like the it was one of the smoothestrides I've ever had in a coaster. Like it was. It was unbelievable. Air Reminds me. It reminded me of the first time that I wroteMillennium Force up and see your point. Yeah, yeah, it just likehow smooth it is. Yeah, it was. It was a beautiful rideand I would go back and do it again in a heartbeat. That's awesome. Well, mean, while I was I was at hollow and a frienddid at Lord of the Rings extended edition marathon on what's go. That wasso fun. I got shots like midway through, like you can't beat thatkind of experience. I mean that sounded like we both had pretty ideal picturesquedays. It was great. It was great and you know what, there'splenty of other fun thing better happening all across the pokemon scene, including thepokemon online global championships, GW. You want to walk us through kind ofhow that ended up? Yeah, so we had a couple of Japanese playersfinish in the finals, which was incredible...

...to see, and we had acouple of decks that, you know, one we should see in the futurein this in tally on ice rider deck that ended up winning and it canbe very, you know, very easily portable into the post rotation format.But the second place deck was a Metun mew ATP style deck, but justfocusing around mewtwo being able to copy a bunch of attacks and glary and Multrasto accelerate energy. So yeah, really cool. Take their on the metoo deck. One of the surprises from the pog champs were all the leafyon decks and the decidual I deck, so grass really coming out in fullforce. Leefyon, of course, being kind of the the newcomer right inthe evolving skyset. So unproven, I suppose, taking a significant number ofspots in the top thirty two, and then decidual as well, just doingvery well on the back of nobody really accounting for it, except for thoselefeon players who built their deck to the DECIDUA. Yeah, true, true, all those us for playing like a feeve pal pad and the Entalia thatstuff. Yes, that makes a very difficult of course, and then,yeah, but it was quite a quite an interesting weekend and I think wesaw a lot of good game play. I was able to catch the streamfor only a couple hours. It sounded like you watched it maybe a littlelonger, but I saw some games with Haydn's dark box that were interesting,saw some lefeon games, so it was pretty nice. I think it wasa good send off to the format and saw some, you know again,new decks, old decks and everything in between. Yeah, I mean Ithink my favorite part of the whole POC champ experience was, you know,that we got to see some of these like Japanese players coming in and doingreally well. I feel like, you know, a lot of these onlinetournaments are are really catered around the Americans or the Europeans, so their schedulekind of plays around that, and pog was very intentional about scheduling it ina way to try and make it accessible to as many people as possible globally. Hence the name, I guess, the Global Championship. And it wasreally cool to see the finals, both being Japanese players who have but in, you know, a region that's kind of underrepresented, I would say,in online play. Yeah, absolutely, they are somewhere around seventy Japanese playersthat made day to which, when you consider that day two was, youknow, a hundred and eighty players, that's extremely impressive. So yeah,like you said, it's is there is kind of this culture divide between JapJapanese tournaments and and, you know, I guess, North American. That'sthat's where we're, you know, stationed out of. But like the betweenJapanese players and like, I guess, the rest of the world in asense, because they also have they also have different format, tournament structures too, and different formats, right, they play with a different sets legal differenttimes. So it's just it's really cool to see they always do well atworlds and then here as close as we could get too world, so againdominating the competition. I also, I think it was really cool as wellthat there was so much mewtwo and mew in this event, like a lotof dark box, a lot of just miscellaneous met and you dex. Itfelt kind of Nice, I guess. Like I feel like metview is thequintessential tag team of all tag teams, so being able to get that lastrepresentation before rotation is kind of cool. Sure, sure, one of themore skill based tag teams, for sure. Yeah, so I agree with you. Is Nice to see it populating a lot of a lot of theday too. I will say I think you touched on this last week aswell. I definitely underestimated sweet as a card, yes, and I don'tsee a reason that it wouldn't continue to be good. Yeah, sweeten isjust like one of those cards that is not going to blow you away withhow strong it is, but it's always a good, super solid option.Yeah, yeah, those are the cards that sneak under the radar, Ithink sometimes. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I'm looking forward to see in thatkind of ice riders we coon, you know in Tell Yon, kindof deck to to do well in the future. Yeah, it was areally interesting Combo, right, because you have sweet coon to kind of getgoing and maybe set up some you know, little bit of damage here and there, and it's a too prizer that could, you know, hit forhit for just little chink chunks and and so same thing. You know.You followed up with the ice riders, right, and then they're doing thetwo hundred and fifty, right, so finishing off what what swee coon started. So I like that a lot. Cool. Should pour it over verywell into post rotation and we'll see how...

...people, you know, factored thatin too to the metagame and stuff. So yeah, absolutely. Is thereanything else like kind of you know, the format itself of the event isI mean, by the time most people are listening this, it's probably alreadyrotated. Is there anything in particular that you want to comment on from theevent and, you know, the actual gameplay that came out of it?Well, I didn't much a ton of the game play because I was,you know, off busy doing house stuff. But yeah, I I can't speakentirely to you know what went on. I watched some of the stream andagain, the dark boxes were very interesting the Times that I saw thoseon. And Yeah, I just it is is interesting to see these cardsthat, you know, we have a little bit of angst about, right, and you know, you're playing on the ladder and you're like, Ohman, why can't everybody play post rotation decks? But then just to see, I don't know, the the possibilities of the format was really cool.I mean I've been a dark box stand from day one, so there yougo in it kind of emerging for us was fun, I would say.You know, if I had one piece of advice as someone who maybe islistening and it's about to be or rotation has happened and you're looking at kindof like the pog champs and you're like, okay, what do I get fromthis? I would take a look at any of the decks that playedin tailing on and most of those can be poured it over very cleanly intopost rotation format. So they're great like starting point for how to get started. Yeah, absolutely, like the leafeon's, I think alite in particular writers.There she who's yeah, yeah, it's very cool, cool. SoI do think we have to talk about a certain event from the event andthat would be the the disqualification of Luke Morse on the allegation that he wasbeing, you know, kind of coached midstream due to having conversations with hiswith his mother during his game play. Javid is another background that you wantto hit on before we kind of dive into this. Well, what Igot some extra Intel from both Luke and Neil, who was, if notthe head judge, at least one of the hedge, I believe was thehead judge of the event. And and so I you know, I'll sharesome of that as we go on, but just want to say out ofthe out of the gates, Luke wasn't the only player disqualified. Now Idon't know who the other ones were, but I do know that in daytwo there were other players a dqued for having somewhat similar situations. Obviously,Luke, you know, streaming his game play and, you know, talkingwith his mom like, is very much for everyone to see. Right,the most publicized and the highest finisher, right, is animas, right,for sure. So there's a lot of a lot of drama surrounding that andI think it would be good, too good to talk about that. Okay, so I'm kind of have we have the groundwork laid out there. Soyou know, Luke had had been playing and playing a leafy on deck.He ended up finishing in the top sixteen and after the event had concluded,the the judge team had decided that a disqualification was in order due to,you know, the breaking of a play Pokemon guidlines around coaching midgame. Sojdw maybe was start from one of those perspectives and and work our way downand then we can start giving our own thoughts interjected in there. Sure.So, Luke Hey, I asked him a little bit, you know,asked them about you know, did they give you a warning kind of whydo you think they dq do you when they did? You know, doyou feel like the judges acted, you know, with bias or anything?And pretty much the answers I got back where, you know, I feellike they did what was in the interest of like the the official TPCI rulebook. So that was, I think, stated in the event description as kindof the law of the land and with a number of you know,reputable judge sources that it makes sense right that they're not going to necessarily caterto the online environment and try to keep everything as as within the rules aspossible. So, you know, Luke says here. You know, Ibelieve that going into the situation they said whatever we find we're going to baseit on the black and white rules of the game, and then they didjust that. I agree that by those standards I should be dqt is whatLuke says the issues that other online games. I think we should assume everyone hasoutside resources or advantages and allow coaching to take place at the risk ofthe player taking bad advice or being too distracted. So Luke kind of sayshere that he thinks maybe this should be...

...allowed to a degree, just thatit's kind of you know, risk and reward in the sense that you canreceive advice but maybe that advice would be pretty you know bad in some casesright, and so just to allow that, kind of allow that to happen isjust going to be the environment of online game. So that was thatwas Luke's, you know take. I get the impression that he was alittle bit you know kind of certainly when it happened and like I think,certainly when he got the asterisk instead of his name on the final standings.I think he's you know take. Took it in stride for sure, buta little bit I got the feeling that it was a little bit he wasa little questioning or maybe not, maybe not upset, but certainly this isone of yeah, unhappy. I mean this was, you know, heput a lot of work into this finish and like it probably one of,probably one of his best finishes, I think, like of all time,right, like in terms of starting from zero and then working in your wayinto the top sixteen of this, you know, thousand person tournament. Socertainly certainly want that, want that reward of at least, you know,being in the final standings. Right. So, you know, I getthe impression that it was just kind of like a this is unfortunate. Iunderstand why it happened, but I wish it didn't happen this way kind ofvibe. Sure, yeah, I mean, and it's I think it's a somewhatvalid perspect active, given the fact that, you know, I cansay with utmost certainty that many players can and do use discord during their games. They streamed their friends, they talk to them. I don't know ifI necessarily agree with his logic that, like you, it's like counteracted bybad advice or being distracted. I don't think that's the angle of attack thatyou need to take there, right. You know, I think more realisticallywe're looking at different spaces. If you're going to make that argument, youhave to say, you know, the online spear isn't isn't the same asreal life and shouldn't adhere to the same exact rules that. Yeah, andthere's a lot to unpack there. And I think let's talk a little bitabout God and judges perspective. So this is Neil. This is the tournmentorganizer for the Sunday open and then also one of, if not the headjudge for the park championships and says here there was a great deal of disagreementamong the judges in this regard, and this is quoting verbatim from Neal.The discussion took quite some time and became heated. So it just kind ofin indicating that, you know, even though the judges eventually came out witha decision, it wasn't necessarily one that everyone agreed with. We don't necessarilyknow why they you know what the different reasonings were. I do have nelskind of reasoning here, but he didn't want to speak for other people,so I completely respect that here. Right, let's see, although I'm not passingthe buck, I was pushing hard that it was against the rules and, I think, against the official rules that were in the original post forhow the tournament was run. I think Neil has a really good understanding that. You know, rules are rules and everything should adhere to those rules.And now, moving forward, maybe there's some opportunity to change those rules ormodify those rules in a way that accommodate for the online environment in a waythat we haven't yet previously done. I think that's, overall, a goodthing. But let's let me continue here saying once it was decided that itwas in fact against the rules of the tournament. Whether or not you likethem or not, they determined that, you know, Luke discussing with hismother was against the rules. He says I informed Luke personally about the reportand that there would be an investigation taking place. I mentioned this only becauseI recall that it was immediately after he'd completed his final round that I hadto reach out to them, and so they didn't know about this until afterthe tournament was over. Hence the DQ. So he goes on to say that. Let's see. He goes on to say that if something had happenedin an earlier you know, if that same interaction had been pointed out inan earlier round to the judge team, that they may not have been asharsh on Luke, which I also find somewhat interesting, but a little moreunderstandable. Right, they could have reached out and said, Hey, thisis a warning, or maybe taken a lesser but still, you know,severe penalty, such as, you know, a game loss or prize penalty orsomething like that to kind of counteract what they thought were, you know, was a breach of the rules. So I think that's pretty interesting aswell. Yeah, and I think there's some stuff to impact there as well, and I think maybe we'll be able...

...to kind of put our minds,at least our takes, into their you know, looking at both these perspectives. Dumb, you know. We had I had stopped us before the castfrom talking too much about this because I wanted it us to kind of havethat kind of candid experience. But it is kind of odd and we hadmentioned that, you know, the level of penalty may have changed depending onwhen this was reported. It sounds like mainmoting, the factor of the disqualificationwas the fact it was, you know, post event, post final round,right you know, I that to me doesn't necessarily drive a hundred percentright, you know, because if we're going strict, if if the rulebook, the handbook, is the rule of God in this scenario, thenthat's cheating, right, and cheating is a disqualification, right, like youdon't let a cheater continue to play, right, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that to me doesn't really vibe either, and it's like, are we or are we not following a certain set of rules? Yeah, it's it's very interesting there. Yeah, because, like you said, Imean if we take if we take who we're talking about out of thepicture and we're just talking about a nameless, faceless person, like if it's deemedthat they were cheating, which it was, like the judge team cameto the conclusion that, you know, Luke was cheating. Okay, whetheror not you agree with that, that's irrelevant. They determined by the TPCIrule book for tournament play that Luke had been cheating. So you know thatthat's not like an indication of his character by any means, because I don'tnecessarily think it was. You know, you know, with with ill intentthat that's right. Again, that's not that's not what we're talking about here. We're just talking about whether or not it was cheating by the TPC Iguidelines. They determined it was, and so if it was, then whatshould be that appropriate, you know, the final outcome. And we're kindof thinking like well, you know, if it was found in round two, like of a in person tournament like that, you know, Luke wasgetting coach during the game, right, because that was the exact situation thathe found himself in. Like, if Luke was getting coach during the game, that would be a breach and that would be a disqualification from the tournament. Everything removed, like you wouldn't be able to play on. So thefact that there was deemed this, you know, this cheating allegation by thejudge team and that they, you know, kind of and almost essentially let himfinish the tournaments by being included in the final standings, it's just veryit's very interesting ruling and I didn't get any clarification from Neil on that inspecific but yeah, that just seems very it seems like an interesting compromise forthe allegation, I guess we could say. Right. I was actually kind ofdisappointed that his name was back on the standing is not because I wantedCelia to be excluded. In fact, I had watched much of his streamduring that day and enjoyed it, but more so because I feel like ifit was a random person who had been caught on their two viewers stream orsomething or, you know, their friend reported discord screenshot or whatever, thatthat random person would not have gotten that level of outreach and that person wouldstill be off of the standings. To me, it feels like were wereretreating our judgment based on community backlash, because ultimately a DQ means that you'remore from the standings right like they're ye middle ground there. So effectively hewas undhed by having his name put back on the standings. Yeah, so, like if it was random, I guess I'm saying it, if itwas random person XYZ, I don't think random person XYZ's name would be backon the standings. If, yeah, you're kind of yeah, you're kindof saying like there's maybe a little bit of of bias in the fact that, you know, I don't necessarily think some is biased towards luke. Ithink it's the fact that community respects in and likes Luke, and so theymade an outrage about it, right, and then we responded to the outrageinstead of sticking to our guns, saying this is the call that we made. It was cheating in the context of this event, and that's it,you know, and we'll work. Yeah, and that's it. And I meanI think the judge staff did a generally good job, actually a reallygood job of of not actually caving into pressure other than, you know,like we said, like the standard, the final standings, which, again, in the grand scheme of things, like isn't really a big deal,but that it just raises some questions about not it just I think you needto in general. This is like not even a slam. Isn't a slamon the judge team. is in a slam on Luke. This is justsaying I personally believe you need to stick to your calls, right, likeyeah, you know, if that, if you made the right call,which they worked as a judge team and decided that they that was the rightcall and it was by the rule book...

...that they used. Yeah, what'sthe what's the problem? Right, like the problem the discussion should have shouldnever have been should luke be dcut in the context of this event. Thatcould the discussion should be. Is the rule book as written appropriate for onlineplay? Right? Right, and that is that is the question moving forward. Absolutely, and I mean my answer is it is. No, it'snot. I think Luke does bring a valid point. He's kind of hefumbled in logic a little bit, I think, getting there, but hehas been the valid point that anyone playing online will inherently unless you do likelike a test proctoring thing, like you know how you can proct your testsand have yeah, but why? Right, screw right. Unless you do somethinglike that, inevitably someone will have a resource that someone else doesn't.We saw this with stream sniping, we saw this with the coaching and we'regoing to continue to find ways around this. I mean, you know, whathave you. People can do things when they have access to a computerthat they cannot they can't do in person, when they're in person, you know. So ultimately there needs to be some sort of shift. In myopinion, we see a lot of the commentary and I feel like so muchof the community was using the wrong logic to get there. Right there,like I'm I'm a little I will say I'm a I'm a little disappointed withsome of the discourse that came out of this whole situation. Much horrible discourse. It was like it can't be yeah, because I do it. Yes,yes, that is that was the bald takable time I saw. Isaw a take where it's like well, I get a discord, but wedon't really talk about the game. It's where are you? Yeah, that'snow. What's the point of this? Right, like people were saying bizarrestuff like really, let's stop saying that. The question should be the question.It shouldn't be whether you're not. You're in discord as well at theprevious event, whether you should be allowed to in the next one. Yes, yes, and I think that this whole situation, you know, itfurther enhances like the I almost want to say like the need for Irl playto come back eventually, like we can't just exist in this online sphere becausethey're just there's a lot of problems. And then now we're also answering questionsabout like well, why don't they hold like, you know, a CPtournaments on phcg oh, like your your this is literally why, right,like the fundamental questions that need to be answered. Yeah, yeah, soI think, I think going forward, like do you want to promote theculture of it's fine to cheat as long as you're not caught? And Ithink the answer is no for that because, like I think, and this goesback to like why it's a little head scratching that they didn't take aharsher stance on Luke and like, you know, again the Asterius, likekeeping him out of the rankings, like because, if you want to,you know, because at that point, like Luke's playing for, you know, top sixteen, is getting like what, like seventy five dollars or something like. You're basically playing for cloud, okay, and the cloud that like, you know, seriously, and like the cract. I mean that's thatamount of time is not worth seventy five to me. Know, it isnot. It is objectively not. And so, you know, you're playingfor cloud, like and so he didn't even get a punishment for that,like for cheating. He didn't even lose the clout that. You know,it's just a weird situation, right, and so, like should we promotethat? Should the community think that it's okay to cheat? And I thinkthe answer is no, like we should take a very hard stance in thejudges should be harsh on this, I think, to the extent that theycan. Is, like, if there is cheating, then it should bedisqualification. Like I think that should be a very hardline stance and I'm veryin favorite of it. And, like you know it does this mean that, you know, maybe streamers have to be on a delay or maybe theyhave to go into sub only not to ask, you know, subscriber areand that emote which chat we mode? You know that that gets a littlegray and like sure, there are gray areas about this because it's it's new, it's different. It's not, you know, in the rule book,like there's some gray areas about this, but from what I gather from othergames, you know, there is this kind of, you know, pseudopolicing that you can do on a on a twitch chat. So, youknow, emote only mode or a delay or some combination of the two tokind of lessen the advantage that you would get as a streamer. But yeah, I mean in a if you're trying to be really competitive, you shouldhave a delay, right. Yeah, yeah, alias, but if incompetitive integrity is like the main goal. Yeah, I saw, I sawan interesting take from from Isaiah Sheville where it was you know, a streamerwho's playing in a in a tournament has two responsibilities, like two hats thatthey're wearing. They have their entertainer hat and they have their player hat,and his take as a judge is that...

...the player hat should always be theone that takes priority, you know, because ultimately you're player in that event, HMM, and you should be equally contributory to the the competitive environment ofthat event as any other player and have the same standards be help to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean not to an extent. Iagree, right, because, like we don't want to necessarily discourage content creation, because I think pokemon just in general is so devoid of content creators.Like, just generally speaking, I would say we are generally devoid of contentcreators, and so I don't want to discourage people from streaming their matches.I think that's generally a good thing and actually in some ways promotes more transparencyfor the game, right, because because if they're streaming, like generally,you're not going to know that they're on a discord or it's going to bevery hard to be on a discord call and stream without people knowing about it, you know, and there are a few other kind of, you knowbenefits of that, like you just get to see see physically and you getto experience it with them, and so it's going to be easier to seeif there's any kind of, you know, fit foul play going on. But, yeah, I think we would both be in agreeance that. Itjust, I don't know, for competitive integrity and I think just for forevents moving forward. I just feel like going with that hard line stance asyeah, like you said, player first should be uphell old and and maybeit's just a facade. Maybe it's just a facade, but I don't thinkwe should, as a community say, you know what looked, it wasfine and like hey, you know, I can jump. I should beable to jump on a discord call, like we should have that kind ofthose voices out there saying like no, that's that's wrong, like even ifyou're playing alone in these tournaments like that, that's kind of shady and you know, you shouldn't be doing that. Like we should, I think,hold that as the standard and if people do it, like we're not goingto be able to police it, but we shouldn't have voices out there,very prominent voices I might add, saying yeah, everybody does it, soit's fine and we should just abolish all of the all the regulations surrounding it. That just boggles my mind, to be honest. I think, becausethe fact that it's unenforceable, it should just be allowed. But that shouldbe a rule, right, that you can you can like talk to yourfriend in sure game supping. If it's not, if it's defined as shooting, we should take the hard stance and treat it is cheating. I think. I think it's. If it's defined as being allowed, then I'm totallycool with that and I actually think that is maybe more appropriate, because whatI think is unfair is, you know, when you throw these people and everyonehas like a different expectation for what they're allowed to be doing. Youknow, right, people who were like, Oh, I'm going to be adiscord call with twenty people, you know, yeah, streaming, sothat's not a big deal, and then you have people who are like,Oh, well, that's not allowed, so I'm going to be completely onmy own out here and not even going to like Google a card see whatinteractions it has or something like that. Right, right, and and ofcourse my stance is coming from you know, again, if it's outlined in therules as being, you know, like TPCI guidelines. But I don'tknow, even then, like I almost feel like we should be having thesetournaments under, you know, kind of like my mother mother rule book.You know, I just I don't think real life and online can ever beone to one. You know. Yeah, and you see this. You seethis in like magic and hearstone as well, where, you know,people do get coached like during tournaments. But that's, yeah, and aloud thing. That's kind is some sure, a loud sure, sure, youknow, even in the team challenge like that is explicitly something happened inthe Team Challenge, obviously as a team based event, but you know,allowed for that extra I don't know, for the actual something, something tobe like included inherently into the event structure. Well, actually, with the teamchallenge, I was talking with Neil about this, that team play wasexplicitly not allowed. Well then there's a lot of durings. WHO DURING QUALIFIERS? During Qualifiers, Oh, during qualifiers. Yeah, it's anyway. Either way, though, I think I think we kind of get into a conclusion, though, that rules. It should be followed and should be enforced tothe appropriate letter of the law and intent of the the letter of the wordsbehind those letters. But I'm still pretty hard line at like real life andonline can't exist in the exact same definition. Sure, and I don't know ifyou agree that or not, but that's definitely my stance. I doI think I'm always going to be an idealist and think like Oh, yeah, you know, I, like I don't cheat, or I don't knowI and maybe I have. Maybe, I mean, I guess I've playedtournaments where I've had chat not on a...

...delay. So, like, Iguess I'm guilty as well. But like, I also don't think I well anyway. But yeah, it's, you know, Italy. Ultimately it bringsup a really good conversation about how to progress forward. I just think it'swe get into really dangerous territory, especially when we go back to on inreal life play of like yeah, cheating, you know, or going against likeTPCI rule book and Code of conduct and is a good thing or encouragedright to do. Well, like I think that sets a very dangerous precedentfor just like into the future, and that's why I'm hesitant to allow orto say like yes, we should allow, you know, or we should explicitlyallow discord calls and, you know, coaching and things like that. It'sjust it feels very slippery. Feels very slippery, especially when we,you know, hopefully get back to irl play sometime soon in like you know, or even in like local leagues or like the Full Grip tournaments. Likeit just feels it feels sketchy to me, you know, to say like yes, this should be something that happens. I don't know, it just Ithink it just because I got pokemon. Okay, and this is a biggerthing too, is like I've been playing for ten years. Pokemon developsa culture of players and I think that that is objectively true. If youlook at the game of Pokemon versus the Games like magic, the gathering inYu Gi oh. POKEMON has a culture and I think that that culture shouldbe upheld to whatever degree it can be, even in an online space. Sobecause of that, and and that's what makes pokemon special and unique andthat's what keeps me coming back in a lot of ways is this culture.And so to take that culture and because we have covid almost throw it outthe window and say, like that's not valued. That feels disingenuous to meto like the core principles of the game. So that's really why I when Ihear, you know, cheating should be allowed or like this kind ofconduct should be allowed like that, really makes me. Well, I thinkYou'all trustraight, careful like thing. Cheating should be allowed because, well,right, and then it's intent is that it's not supposed. Yeah, ofcourse, of course, of course, I understand, but it just said. I I do think ultimately, tag team is right on this, everyoneelse. But really I just I think the main point I want to drivehome is that's this is the discourse we should be having. Is We shouldbe talking about what should the online space be defined as and how should thatyou know, where is that going to be written, and how are wegoing to follow and enforce that? It should not be my friend was disqualified, or content creator I follow is just qualified, so I'm going to throwa fit about it. Yeah, you have to. You have to bemore objective and reasonable than that. Yeah, I agree. So, anyway,it's I feel like, as you know, my take is especially problematic. I think I'll, I'm sure I'll hear some some comments about it afterthe cast. There you go, but there you go, and you know, have an opinion. I would say that as well. Like have anopinion on this, because it's pretty important in my going to develop one too, though. Well, true, no, no, like, don't just don'tjust spit out what we say. Don't just say a certain thing becausea certain content creator says one thing or another. Like actually think about this, think about what you want for the game, Yep, and come withyour opinion. That's that's a good point too. Is like what do youwant for the game? What do you want the game to look like?I guess there's some like team collaborative aspect to it that's kind of interesting to, you know, look at, but I don't know, it just justfeels feels dirty. Well, we do there, you know, you doknow dhw. What's that? It's your card of the day. I do. Yes, yes, let's move on Card to the day. You know, this one is kind of it kind of feels like cheating. Okay,this one kind of feels like cheating because you get to look at it uponits hand. Yeah, yeah, you've I've become the cheater because I lovedthis card back in the day. You get to look at your opponent's handand you get to do something with it. Love that for you. What doyou think you get to do? Take all the trainer cars and shufflethem into the deck? Oh, not quite, not quite. Keep going, I'm trying to think. One of their cards like interacted through opponent's handand you actually look at it. Just Discard and energy card you find there. Oh, not quite. Okay. So this is this is the portraitsmearcle allows you to choose a supporter card you find there as a Polka powerand use the effect. Yeah, yeah, it us the effect of this card, is the effect of this power. So you can, like back inthe day, this was so it was such a funny card because youdidn't know whether it was going to be...

...good or bad. Like it wasgenerally a good card, right, like eighty percent of the time. Thatclarify, as you had to use a support yes, yes, yes,yeah, so, so you had to use a supporter off this poka powerif you use smargl ed and so there was there was like an eighty percentchance at the card that you found the supporter card in your opponent's hand wasa good one, or at least you'd have a choice. Right. There'spoke, my collector back in the day, which was a very common target fromportrait it but there are also things like N or, Professor Oaks newtheory, which would shuffle your hand back in and draw a certain number ofcards which you might not have wanted because you were looking for, you knowsomething, or they also had professor's research or I guess at the back they'reprofessor juniper at the time, and so that would discard your hand. Soit's like, oh no, there were times where all my importance exactly exactlywhere your kind of body by a portrait. You're like, Oh man, I'mhoping for a collector. Oh wait, I had to, you know,research away all my rare candies, and so yeah, it was highrisk, I reward in some cases and really a fun card to play with, because the other thing too about smeargal is that you could use multiple solike you could go once meargal portrait and you found, you know, professoro Smith Theory is you shuffle your hand in, get six and then youcould like retreat into another smeargal portrait again. Oh they have professor of smuth theoryshuffle and it get six, you know, retreated to another smeargal todo it against. You could see, you know, eighteen cards in aturn or more with your portrait of plus your own supporter. So it's kindof how something that was everything again. Well, it wasn't even an abilityas a Polka power, sure so, but yeah, it was. Itwas super funny and I just loved that. It was like on a on alesser played card or a lesser played pokemon like smear goal is just veryforgotten, I feel like. But to give it such a cool pok ofpower that belonged in almost almost every deck around that time was really neat.Portrait smargle is gooded for sure. That's a really yeah looking card too.It's so fun. It's so fun. That's a that's a good pick.That's a good pick. I was thinking of cuts this and team y'ell groundteam team rockets. What which one was that? or You just scarved fromthe hand? Yeah, that wasn't tea team Yeo gruns from the field teamrockets, grunt, it was he the lowland one skull grunt teams, skullgrind? Yes, there we go. Thank you. Ten types, areyou? Thank you, ton of types, freaks. There's too many teas now. True, true, I'm getting old. That's right. Awesome,awesome stuff. So our last topic for today, as promised last week,we wanted to talk about the objective deck and kind of give our thoughts onit as a tool. So, for the UNINITIATED, the objective deck isa website that just came out. We had, I forget, I forget, the Nice fellows named Mikey. Mikey was a statistician. He's very interestedand how to kind of like apply, want to apply, quantify, likeapply informatics to Pokemon and, you know, kind of level up the gameplay thatwe have available to us. so He created this tool. That basicallywhat it does is it parses your tcge oh logs and it finds out certaininformation about the game, such as like how many cards you drew, likehow many energy you attashed for, how many knockouts you took versus how muchdamage you did, and kind of averages those. The I think, thereal you can do it on a single game, but the idea is thatyou average it over an aggregate of games and can start to gather find sometrial information about, you know, how your deck does and wins versus losses. Yeah, and kind of the gout where to make adjustments from there.So, JB, I'm curious. You know, we talked about doing thisthe other week, so I'm sure you have thoughts. What are your initialimpressions on the tool? I think it's overall good. I would say thatwith any sort of data driven tool like this, that it doesn't guarantee performancebecause of course you have to have your in gameplay be good. And like, if you're uploading bad game logs, like you know, you're just goingto get bodied you know, because it's going to tell you results that arenot consistent with you know what what should actually happen. Right, if you'remisplaying and you upload that Game Log, well, you know your kind ofboned or like. Similarly, if your opponent misplays and you upload that log, well, you know, same issue. Right. You're having kind of aconflict there, but I will say overall good tool. However, youknow, the the kind of data driven idea, you know, popularized bylike the the movie money ball and that whole Oakland athletics, you know,data driven, you know, player performance.

They never want a world series withthat model. So like it's not you know, I think they're therewere a few things that I was seeing on twitter. It's like, Oh, you know, this is going to change the game, it's going toit's going to, you know, revolutionize the game, and some players wereeven kind of heralding it as a way to, you know, like almostsave themselves, you know, and and I think to it agree that's true. But change the game, I think as a little higher praise. LikeI'm very excited for this tool and the opportunities that it presents two players.And I think one thing that you're going to see that's a very obvious datapoint that is good to look at is win percentage going first or second.I think that will be, for a lot of players, yeah, avery important piece of data that they can pick out for their testing. Andso, yeah, I was actually going to specifically reference that data point aswell. I think that, yeah, that might be the most useful oneon the page. So I have a couple of takes and I'm gonna goingto go through them. I'll first answer your question in chat. So interms of data types. There's basically I can run through the basically the wholesubset of them. There's basically cards drawn, there's amount of energy attached, there'samount of times that you attacked and what turney started attacking, how muchdamage you did, how many knockouts he took, and then it kind ofdoes some like some mathematics on the averages of those or like how those relateto each other. So you have like energy efficiency, which is kind oflike how many energy you attached versus the knockcasts that you took to win thegame, stuff like that. Yeah, so, but basically it takes thosemain like core data points and then does some math against those in different ways. So my first take is that I think this is as as it isdesigned right now. It is a more useful tool for a new player thanan experienced player. Sure, I think a lot of these data points canbe kind of extrapolated or posited just from having like kind of a fundamental knowledgeof the game. So a good example of that is in the introduction videothat you shadow rider is kind of like a dummy deck that they they ransome games on and posted the logs for shadow rider. When you win gameshas bad energy efficiency because you attach a lot of energy. But right,does not mean you should change the deck because you were drawing were cards byattaching energy, which is what is letting you win the game. Right,right, right. Another example is, you know, cards drawn. Likeyou can pretty reasonably pose it with a deck like shadow rider or Rickquaysa orany deck really, that you were likely drawing more cards in the games thatyou went right. That doesn't necessarily directly relate to your game play. Itjust means that the games that you win you're turboing through your deck more,you're seeing more stuff. Right, you have access to more of your deck. Yeah, the data point that I think is particularly useful is is thefirst versus second, because I think that's something a lot of people lack clarityon right now. Yes, and I think that's the thing that that evenexperienced players could benefit from. Is that particular data point. I think someof the things like energy efficiency, like energy acceleration, kind of missed themark for me. Like I can I can extrapolate pretty quickly that shadow riderand Senti scorch with welder and dark box accelerate more energy to the board thaners food right, or have like worse energy efficiency or whatever. That,to me isn't like super meaningful, right. What I wish the debt. WhatI wish the site offered, and I hope that they continue to enhanceit, because I think the idea is good. I think that data ismore applicable to a card game than to, you know, baseball or yes,yeah, sure is. I like how the cards relate to each other. Right, like an example I was talking about with my friend today thatI think would be really interesting would be like if you turn one research forthis, turn one Marnie, which how which one wins you more games?Sure you know how many of your knockouts are taken with boss's orders versus likeknocking out what's in the active sure, like those are things that I'm interestedin that I think you could still isolate from a game log, but needto be like more explicitly built out. So I think there's like lots ofenhancements that still need to be made for the tool to truly be where itneeds to be as a stands right now. I think a lot of this couldbe done with like good tracking of your testing right where you like keepyour spetchy and like say, if you want, did this, that orwhatever, and and if you are lost. Yeah, kind of like we typicallydo, like leading up to world...

...championships for large events. But Ido think the first for a second is pretty useful. So, over allmy points, I think there's a lot of enhancements to be made. There'sa lot of interesting data points that aren't captured in the data set right now. I do another one of my takes is that I do agree the datais kind of like corrupted, so to speak, by you know, maybestub optimal gameplay or even like, you know, concessions, things like that. Like a concession like messes up the data, right, because the Gamesbeing completed, like you need to get every game through completion. Yeah,yeah, that's another thing too write because, like a baseball game isn't ending earlyfor the most part, right so, but a game that because there area lot of times, right, we're an opponent conceats too early.You see it all the time on the ladder and of course you know youcould always can't concede, righte like if you know you're in a losing position, but you want to get the data, you need to like keep laying rightright. That's all sort of about the game. But then, likeyou're also getting less to points. So yeah, no, I mean,of course, like it's going to be the most useful in and in acompetitive setting, right, where you're taking those data points from, you know, tournament wins or losses. But yeah, like you said, there's I meanthere's always going to be issues with with any data, and so we'lljust have to see just how much the tool gets used, and I hopeit does, how much the tool gets used to give, you know,community wide feedback, right, because hopefully this project is just not an individualbased project, because it would be really nice to see a similar thing.Not only it would be, you know, nice to see not only like yourresults, but your results paired with, you know, the masses of resultsand like even maybe, and this is kind of difficult to do butcertainly possible, like breaking it down into certain matchups, you know, goingfirst or second in certain match of certain Tech Cards in certain decks, whichlimitless kind of has as well. But I think it's what the tool needs, though, is it needs to have that soun sort of like more discreteanalysis to get it all the way they're like it needs to analyze how thecards relate to each other. Yeah, exactly, there, exactly. So, as a stand summary of my takes, the data could potentially be bad.Is a lot of confounding factors if not analyze properly. Know how toread data, like, know how to interpret data as well. If you'regoing to use this tool, like don't take every single number at face value, like bigger number better. That's not always true, right. It's betterfor new players as a stands right now, and I really really hope that theykind of use it to like aggregate data more, not just at theindividual level, but taking a lot of people's data and like compiling it andfiguring out something larger and more meaningful from a larger set. Yep, absolutely. So those are kind of my I think there's a lot of potential thereand honestly, I wish they would kind of like it'd be great if theydid like an application like I could scrape your logs in real time or orhope, or made it open source, so like people could, you know, make their own kind of queries, right, like if I wanted towrite a query for Sycamore versus Marnie on turn one, like I could maybedo that. Like I think there's so much potential there and so I thinkit's a good idea, but it's not all the way or it needs tobe yet to be like the most useful tool. Yeah, totally, completelyagree. Awesome. I'm I wanted to say that as I want to talkthrough that after I saw the videos so I'd have like this is like mymain thoughts coming out of it. But I do give lots of props toMikey, especially in his development team, for like actually developing a reasonable webtool in, you know, relatively short time frame. I mean, forthe most part it can't hurt, you know, any of those tools.Like it can't hurt. I mean I guess there's a there's a weird alternateworld where, like the data is is being skewed so much by the playersthat they actually think that, you know, worst plays are better, you know, like per halfs, that that could work like. Because you alsohave to think like the general masses of players, like do people generally play? You know, people don't generally play perfectly right. So how does thataffect things? Because I will that. Yeah, but I mean it's justan interesting thought right, like if everybody's chooses to go second, if everyonechooses to go second just out of habit, then that's going to influence the databecause all of the data games are going to be people going second,you know. So it's just it's very interesting and I'll be interested, interestedto see how it plays out. What a noncommittal answer. It is verynoncommittally, but it can't hurt. I mean it's going to be a generallygood tool. Like we said, those few data points I think are goingto be immediately helpful and then as they build the site out more, whichwe both hope they do, should be able to gain some more insight.You know, I think getting at the DQ and optimal deck, I reallyjust think we need to take sixty cards, our opponent takes sixty cars. Yourun it through a computer simulation that plays a million like optimal games backand forth, and whichever deck one more...

...is the better act in that way. Yeah, I think that really actually a really interesting format for a tournament. If, if I'm you know, if objective deck ever gets to thatpoint where they can run those kinds of simulations of decks, that would bevery interesting to see that like where being a tournament entirely on metagaming, right, because you could never actually, you know, if you never, ifyou took playing out of the equation, AAn, what would that look like? I think that'd be fascinating. I think as think that's the only waythat pokemon can can be more forward, you know, but take the playerout of it. The logical, yeah, the logical endgame is just entirely deckbuilding and metagaming. I think that would be fun in its own way. I would be really fun. Yeah, I hope we get there well.Thank you all so much for listening today. It's been an awesome episodeof TAG team. If you like this episode, or if you didn't,be sure to rate and review on your favorite podcasting platforms and Gw. Wherecan they find us? They can find us twitchtv slash munner. Every Wednesdaynight. We're recording on Tuesday, so forgive us for that, but everyWednesday night and thirty it's every time. We say same time, storing place. The week before we do it it's a different time and then they canthey can find they can find me at t whitchtv slash flex daddy righteous formore gameplay. They can also find us on twitter at tag team Pokemon forthe podcast, and then at smiles with riles and at Real John Walter.Awesome. Well, you all are the best. We appreciate every single oneof you who listens every single week or if you're listening for the first timeor if you're spread a listener. We appreciate all of you and we willcatch you all next time pace see you.

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