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Tag Team Pokemon TCG Podcast
Tag Team Pokemon TCG Podcast

Season 4, Episode 2 · 9 months ago

4-2. The Pokematrix and How to Escape It

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

The boys have some hot hot takes regarding the events of the POG Championships and some recent movements in the scene. Don't miss out on this one if you enjoy spice!

Yo, what is up? Guys? Welcome back to tag team Pokemon, trading card games for me, or podcasting duo. My name is Riley Hulbart, joined as always by my good, good friend Mr JW Curry. Wall JW has a hanging. It is hanging. Well, Riley, thank you for asking. Yeah, there's it is. We are recording one day earlier because tomorrow is a very special day, my birthday. It's arguably special. Okay, fair enough, fair enough, but my wife special at us? Yeah, that's right, that's right, special. Maybe not other people, but that's neither here nor there. We're recording one day early such that I can go out to dinner with my wife tomorrow and then get back and, you know, maybe I'll drink a glass of wine or something out at the Italian restaurant. I'll drink too many of those, I probably won't. Well, yeah, we're super excited for GW's birthday and he's got some surprises on the docket, according to his wife, so we'll be fascinated to hear about those. It's just one surprise and it could be like anything, ranging from I was trying to guess with her as like, HMM, is it a test dride of a Teslaw, because we have been talking about doing that. You know how you can like schedule a ride, you know, and pretend as if you're going to buy it. But then she said don't dress up for this. So then I was like, okay, maybe it's some kind of outdoor activity, like I really liked a mini golf. So she you know, I was. I was thinking about that and that would be, you know, twenty minutes away, probably so, and I don't have to get dressed up for that. But then she wouldn't say. She said that it wasn't that. So now I'm kind of those are kind of the things I would automatically guess. But if I don't think it's either of those. So we'll have to see. We will have to see. Stay tuned to learn. More excited to that's right. How's your week been? It's been pretty good, man, all things considered. I mean it's just, you know, rise and grind and it's in Grassam signalmail grinds it. I know it. Yes, true, true, no, it's it's been good, though. How about you? It's been good. It's been good. The you know, it's the Labor Day, the week of Labor Day. Yeah, I feal listening in the futures. So we had that extra day off in the week and man, that is the huge, huge refresher. Yeah, every every week should be a threeday weekend. I actually like really agree because coming back today I was I was really motivated to work and it just it felt nice knowing that, you know, there's only like four days in a week and I don't know, is good. We ended up going on to their studies on it. That people that are more productive. Yeah, when they have more time. I mean it makes sense, right, people are more productive when I have more time. But I went up to King's island. Oh, so that is a status in my hometown. Oh, yeah, Mason. I told it. Forgot. Yeah, in Mason, of course. Yeah, so kings island is a theme park, like a Cedar Point Six flags type thing, and it was extremely fun. There you go. Yeah, I have you ever the diamond back? All, the diamond back was the first ride. Yeah, I'd never been there before. That was our first ride. It was great, as great they just also, they also built, in two thousand and twenty, I think, just before the pandemic, this Giga coaster called the Orion. I heard about them building that. Yeah, yeah, and it's one of it's one of seven Giga coasters in the world. And you ask what is a Giga coaster, and that is when the height is between three hundred feet and three hundred and ninety nine feet. There you go. So it's one of seven in the world, which I thought was a very fun stat and it was great and I rode that front seat. Wowise, it was amazing. It was like the it was one of the smoothest rides I've ever had in a coaster. Like it was. It was unbelievable. Air Reminds me. It reminded me of the first time that I wrote Millennium Force up and see your point. Yeah, yeah, it just like how smooth it is. Yeah, it was. It was a beautiful ride and I would go back and do it again in a heartbeat. That's awesome. Well, mean, while I was I was at hollow and a friend did at Lord of the Rings extended edition marathon on what's go. That was so fun. I got shots like midway through, like you can't beat that kind of experience. I mean that sounded like we both had pretty ideal picturesque days. It was great. It was great and you know what, there's plenty of other fun thing better happening all across the pokemon scene, including the pokemon online global championships, GW. You want to walk us through kind of how that ended up? Yeah, so we had a couple of Japanese players finish in the finals, which was incredible...

...to see, and we had a couple of decks that, you know, one we should see in the future in this in tally on ice rider deck that ended up winning and it can be very, you know, very easily portable into the post rotation format. But the second place deck was a Metun mew ATP style deck, but just focusing around mewtwo being able to copy a bunch of attacks and glary and Multras to accelerate energy. So yeah, really cool. Take their on the me too deck. One of the surprises from the pog champs were all the leafy on decks and the decidual I deck, so grass really coming out in full force. Leefyon, of course, being kind of the the newcomer right in the evolving skyset. So unproven, I suppose, taking a significant number of spots in the top thirty two, and then decidual as well, just doing very well on the back of nobody really accounting for it, except for those lefeon players who built their deck to the DECIDUA. Yeah, true, true, all those us for playing like a feeve pal pad and the Entalia that stuff. Yes, that makes a very difficult of course, and then, yeah, but it was quite a quite an interesting weekend and I think we saw a lot of good game play. I was able to catch the stream for only a couple hours. It sounded like you watched it maybe a little longer, but I saw some games with Haydn's dark box that were interesting, saw some lefeon games, so it was pretty nice. I think it was a good send off to the format and saw some, you know again, new decks, old decks and everything in between. Yeah, I mean I think my favorite part of the whole POC champ experience was, you know, that we got to see some of these like Japanese players coming in and doing really well. I feel like, you know, a lot of these online tournaments are are really catered around the Americans or the Europeans, so their schedule kind of plays around that, and pog was very intentional about scheduling it in a way to try and make it accessible to as many people as possible globally. Hence the name, I guess, the Global Championship. And it was really cool to see the finals, both being Japanese players who have but in, you know, a region that's kind of underrepresented, I would say, in online play. Yeah, absolutely, they are somewhere around seventy Japanese players that made day to which, when you consider that day two was, you know, a hundred and eighty players, that's extremely impressive. So yeah, like you said, it's is there is kind of this culture divide between Jap Japanese tournaments and and, you know, I guess, North American. That's that's where we're, you know, stationed out of. But like the between Japanese players and like, I guess, the rest of the world in a sense, because they also have they also have different format, tournament structures too, and different formats, right, they play with a different sets legal different times. So it's just it's really cool to see they always do well at worlds and then here as close as we could get too world, so again dominating the competition. I also, I think it was really cool as well that there was so much mewtwo and mew in this event, like a lot of dark box, a lot of just miscellaneous met and you dex. It felt kind of Nice, I guess. Like I feel like metview is the quintessential tag team of all tag teams, so being able to get that last representation before rotation is kind of cool. Sure, sure, one of the more skill based tag teams, for sure. Yeah, so I agree with you. Is Nice to see it populating a lot of a lot of the day too. I will say I think you touched on this last week as well. I definitely underestimated sweet as a card, yes, and I don't see a reason that it wouldn't continue to be good. Yeah, sweeten is just like one of those cards that is not going to blow you away with how strong it is, but it's always a good, super solid option. Yeah, yeah, those are the cards that sneak under the radar, I think sometimes. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I'm looking forward to see in that kind of ice riders we coon, you know in Tell Yon, kind of deck to to do well in the future. Yeah, it was a really interesting Combo, right, because you have sweet coon to kind of get going and maybe set up some you know, little bit of damage here and there, and it's a too prizer that could, you know, hit for hit for just little chink chunks and and so same thing. You know. You followed up with the ice riders, right, and then they're doing the two hundred and fifty, right, so finishing off what what swee coon started. So I like that a lot. Cool. Should pour it over very well into post rotation and we'll see how...

...people, you know, factored that in too to the metagame and stuff. So yeah, absolutely. Is there anything else like kind of you know, the format itself of the event is I mean, by the time most people are listening this, it's probably already rotated. Is there anything in particular that you want to comment on from the event and, you know, the actual gameplay that came out of it? Well, I didn't much a ton of the game play because I was, you know, off busy doing house stuff. But yeah, I I can't speak entirely to you know what went on. I watched some of the stream and again, the dark boxes were very interesting the Times that I saw those on. And Yeah, I just it is is interesting to see these cards that, you know, we have a little bit of angst about, right, and you know, you're playing on the ladder and you're like, Oh man, why can't everybody play post rotation decks? But then just to see, I don't know, the the possibilities of the format was really cool. I mean I've been a dark box stand from day one, so there you go in it kind of emerging for us was fun, I would say. You know, if I had one piece of advice as someone who maybe is listening and it's about to be or rotation has happened and you're looking at kind of like the pog champs and you're like, okay, what do I get from this? I would take a look at any of the decks that played in tailing on and most of those can be poured it over very cleanly into post rotation format. So they're great like starting point for how to get started. Yeah, absolutely, like the leafeon's, I think alite in particular writers. There she who's yeah, yeah, it's very cool, cool. So I do think we have to talk about a certain event from the event and that would be the the disqualification of Luke Morse on the allegation that he was being, you know, kind of coached midstream due to having conversations with his with his mother during his game play. Javid is another background that you want to hit on before we kind of dive into this. Well, what I got some extra Intel from both Luke and Neil, who was, if not the head judge, at least one of the hedge, I believe was the head judge of the event. And and so I you know, I'll share some of that as we go on, but just want to say out of the out of the gates, Luke wasn't the only player disqualified. Now I don't know who the other ones were, but I do know that in day two there were other players a dqued for having somewhat similar situations. Obviously, Luke, you know, streaming his game play and, you know, talking with his mom like, is very much for everyone to see. Right, the most publicized and the highest finisher, right, is animas, right, for sure. So there's a lot of a lot of drama surrounding that and I think it would be good, too good to talk about that. Okay, so I'm kind of have we have the groundwork laid out there. So you know, Luke had had been playing and playing a leafy on deck. He ended up finishing in the top sixteen and after the event had concluded, the the judge team had decided that a disqualification was in order due to, you know, the breaking of a play Pokemon guidlines around coaching midgame. So jdw maybe was start from one of those perspectives and and work our way down and then we can start giving our own thoughts interjected in there. Sure. So, Luke Hey, I asked him a little bit, you know, asked them about you know, did they give you a warning kind of why do you think they dq do you when they did? You know, do you feel like the judges acted, you know, with bias or anything? And pretty much the answers I got back where, you know, I feel like they did what was in the interest of like the the official TPCI rule book. So that was, I think, stated in the event description as kind of the law of the land and with a number of you know, reputable judge sources that it makes sense right that they're not going to necessarily cater to the online environment and try to keep everything as as within the rules as possible. So, you know, Luke says here. You know, I believe that going into the situation they said whatever we find we're going to base it on the black and white rules of the game, and then they did just that. I agree that by those standards I should be dqt is what Luke says the issues that other online games. I think we should assume everyone has outside resources or advantages and allow coaching to take place at the risk of the player taking bad advice or being too distracted. So Luke kind of says here that he thinks maybe this should be...

...allowed to a degree, just that it's kind of you know, risk and reward in the sense that you can receive advice but maybe that advice would be pretty you know bad in some cases right, and so just to allow that, kind of allow that to happen is just going to be the environment of online game. So that was that was Luke's, you know take. I get the impression that he was a little bit you know kind of certainly when it happened and like I think, certainly when he got the asterisk instead of his name on the final standings. I think he's you know take. Took it in stride for sure, but a little bit I got the feeling that it was a little bit he was a little questioning or maybe not, maybe not upset, but certainly this is one of yeah, unhappy. I mean this was, you know, he put a lot of work into this finish and like it probably one of, probably one of his best finishes, I think, like of all time, right, like in terms of starting from zero and then working in your way into the top sixteen of this, you know, thousand person tournament. So certainly certainly want that, want that reward of at least, you know, being in the final standings. Right. So, you know, I get the impression that it was just kind of like a this is unfortunate. I understand why it happened, but I wish it didn't happen this way kind of vibe. Sure, yeah, I mean, and it's I think it's a somewhat valid perspect active, given the fact that, you know, I can say with utmost certainty that many players can and do use discord during their games. They streamed their friends, they talk to them. I don't know if I necessarily agree with his logic that, like you, it's like counteracted by bad advice or being distracted. I don't think that's the angle of attack that you need to take there, right. You know, I think more realistically we're looking at different spaces. If you're going to make that argument, you have to say, you know, the online spear isn't isn't the same as real life and shouldn't adhere to the same exact rules that. Yeah, and there's a lot to unpack there. And I think let's talk a little bit about God and judges perspective. So this is Neil. This is the tournment organizer for the Sunday open and then also one of, if not the head judge for the park championships and says here there was a great deal of disagreement among the judges in this regard, and this is quoting verbatim from Neal. The discussion took quite some time and became heated. So it just kind of in indicating that, you know, even though the judges eventually came out with a decision, it wasn't necessarily one that everyone agreed with. We don't necessarily know why they you know what the different reasonings were. I do have nels kind of reasoning here, but he didn't want to speak for other people, so I completely respect that here. Right, let's see, although I'm not passing the buck, I was pushing hard that it was against the rules and, I think, against the official rules that were in the original post for how the tournament was run. I think Neil has a really good understanding that. You know, rules are rules and everything should adhere to those rules. And now, moving forward, maybe there's some opportunity to change those rules or modify those rules in a way that accommodate for the online environment in a way that we haven't yet previously done. I think that's, overall, a good thing. But let's let me continue here saying once it was decided that it was in fact against the rules of the tournament. Whether or not you like them or not, they determined that, you know, Luke discussing with his mother was against the rules. He says I informed Luke personally about the report and that there would be an investigation taking place. I mentioned this only because I recall that it was immediately after he'd completed his final round that I had to reach out to them, and so they didn't know about this until after the tournament was over. Hence the DQ. So he goes on to say that. Let's see. He goes on to say that if something had happened in an earlier you know, if that same interaction had been pointed out in an earlier round to the judge team, that they may not have been as harsh on Luke, which I also find somewhat interesting, but a little more understandable. Right, they could have reached out and said, Hey, this is a warning, or maybe taken a lesser but still, you know, severe penalty, such as, you know, a game loss or prize penalty or something like that to kind of counteract what they thought were, you know, was a breach of the rules. So I think that's pretty interesting as well. Yeah, and I think there's some stuff to impact there as well, and I think maybe we'll be able...

...to kind of put our minds, at least our takes, into their you know, looking at both these perspectives. Dumb, you know. We had I had stopped us before the cast from talking too much about this because I wanted it us to kind of have that kind of candid experience. But it is kind of odd and we had mentioned that, you know, the level of penalty may have changed depending on when this was reported. It sounds like mainmoting, the factor of the disqualification was the fact it was, you know, post event, post final round, right you know, I that to me doesn't necessarily drive a hundred percent right, you know, because if we're going strict, if if the rule book, the handbook, is the rule of God in this scenario, then that's cheating, right, and cheating is a disqualification, right, like you don't let a cheater continue to play, right, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that to me doesn't really vibe either, and it's like, are we or are we not following a certain set of rules? Yeah, it's it's very interesting there. Yeah, because, like you said, I mean if we take if we take who we're talking about out of the picture and we're just talking about a nameless, faceless person, like if it's deemed that they were cheating, which it was, like the judge team came to the conclusion that, you know, Luke was cheating. Okay, whether or not you agree with that, that's irrelevant. They determined by the TPCI rule book for tournament play that Luke had been cheating. So you know that that's not like an indication of his character by any means, because I don't necessarily think it was. You know, you know, with with ill intent that that's right. Again, that's not that's not what we're talking about here. We're just talking about whether or not it was cheating by the TPC I guidelines. They determined it was, and so if it was, then what should be that appropriate, you know, the final outcome. And we're kind of thinking like well, you know, if it was found in round two, like of a in person tournament like that, you know, Luke was getting coach during the game, right, because that was the exact situation that he found himself in. Like, if Luke was getting coach during the game, that would be a breach and that would be a disqualification from the tournament. Everything removed, like you wouldn't be able to play on. So the fact that there was deemed this, you know, this cheating allegation by the judge team and that they, you know, kind of and almost essentially let him finish the tournaments by being included in the final standings, it's just very it's very interesting ruling and I didn't get any clarification from Neil on that in specific but yeah, that just seems very it seems like an interesting compromise for the allegation, I guess we could say. Right. I was actually kind of disappointed that his name was back on the standing is not because I wanted Celia to be excluded. In fact, I had watched much of his stream during that day and enjoyed it, but more so because I feel like if it was a random person who had been caught on their two viewers stream or something or, you know, their friend reported discord screenshot or whatever, that that random person would not have gotten that level of outreach and that person would still be off of the standings. To me, it feels like were were retreating our judgment based on community backlash, because ultimately a DQ means that you're more from the standings right like they're ye middle ground there. So effectively he was undhed by having his name put back on the standings. Yeah, so, like if it was random, I guess I'm saying it, if it was random person XYZ, I don't think random person XYZ's name would be back on the standings. If, yeah, you're kind of yeah, you're kind of saying like there's maybe a little bit of of bias in the fact that, you know, I don't necessarily think some is biased towards luke. I think it's the fact that community respects in and likes Luke, and so they made an outrage about it, right, and then we responded to the outrage instead of sticking to our guns, saying this is the call that we made. It was cheating in the context of this event, and that's it, you know, and we'll work. Yeah, and that's it. And I mean I think the judge staff did a generally good job, actually a really good job of of not actually caving into pressure other than, you know, like we said, like the standard, the final standings, which, again, in the grand scheme of things, like isn't really a big deal, but that it just raises some questions about not it just I think you need to in general. This is like not even a slam. Isn't a slam on the judge team. is in a slam on Luke. This is just saying I personally believe you need to stick to your calls, right, like yeah, you know, if that, if you made the right call, which they worked as a judge team and decided that they that was the right call and it was by the rule book...

...that they used. Yeah, what's the what's the problem? Right, like the problem the discussion should have should never have been should luke be dcut in the context of this event. That could the discussion should be. Is the rule book as written appropriate for online play? Right? Right, and that is that is the question moving forward. Absolutely, and I mean my answer is it is. No, it's not. I think Luke does bring a valid point. He's kind of he fumbled in logic a little bit, I think, getting there, but he has been the valid point that anyone playing online will inherently unless you do like like a test proctoring thing, like you know how you can proct your tests and have yeah, but why? Right, screw right. Unless you do something like that, inevitably someone will have a resource that someone else doesn't. We saw this with stream sniping, we saw this with the coaching and we're going to continue to find ways around this. I mean, you know, what have you. People can do things when they have access to a computer that they cannot they can't do in person, when they're in person, you know. So ultimately there needs to be some sort of shift. In my opinion, we see a lot of the commentary and I feel like so much of the community was using the wrong logic to get there. Right there, like I'm I'm a little I will say I'm a I'm a little disappointed with some of the discourse that came out of this whole situation. Much horrible discourse. It was like it can't be yeah, because I do it. Yes, yes, that is that was the bald takable time I saw. I saw a take where it's like well, I get a discord, but we don't really talk about the game. It's where are you? Yeah, that's now. What's the point of this? Right, like people were saying bizarre stuff like really, let's stop saying that. The question should be the question. It shouldn't be whether you're not. You're in discord as well at the previous event, whether you should be allowed to in the next one. Yes, yes, and I think that this whole situation, you know, it further enhances like the I almost want to say like the need for Irl play to come back eventually, like we can't just exist in this online sphere because they're just there's a lot of problems. And then now we're also answering questions about like well, why don't they hold like, you know, a CP tournaments on phcg oh, like your your this is literally why, right, like the fundamental questions that need to be answered. Yeah, yeah, so I think, I think going forward, like do you want to promote the culture of it's fine to cheat as long as you're not caught? And I think the answer is no for that because, like I think, and this goes back to like why it's a little head scratching that they didn't take a harsher stance on Luke and like, you know, again the Asterius, like keeping him out of the rankings, like because, if you want to, you know, because at that point, like Luke's playing for, you know, top sixteen, is getting like what, like seventy five dollars or something like. You're basically playing for cloud, okay, and the cloud that like, you know, seriously, and like the cract. I mean that's that amount of time is not worth seventy five to me. Know, it is not. It is objectively not. And so, you know, you're playing for cloud, like and so he didn't even get a punishment for that, like for cheating. He didn't even lose the clout that. You know, it's just a weird situation, right, and so, like should we promote that? Should the community think that it's okay to cheat? And I think the answer is no, like we should take a very hard stance in the judges should be harsh on this, I think, to the extent that they can. Is, like, if there is cheating, then it should be disqualification. Like I think that should be a very hardline stance and I'm very in favorite of it. And, like you know it does this mean that, you know, maybe streamers have to be on a delay or maybe they have to go into sub only not to ask, you know, subscriber are and that emote which chat we mode? You know that that gets a little gray and like sure, there are gray areas about this because it's it's new, it's different. It's not, you know, in the rule book, like there's some gray areas about this, but from what I gather from other games, you know, there is this kind of, you know, pseudo policing that you can do on a on a twitch chat. So, you know, emote only mode or a delay or some combination of the two to kind of lessen the advantage that you would get as a streamer. But yeah, I mean in a if you're trying to be really competitive, you should have a delay, right. Yeah, yeah, alias, but if in competitive integrity is like the main goal. Yeah, I saw, I saw an interesting take from from Isaiah Sheville where it was you know, a streamer who's playing in a in a tournament has two responsibilities, like two hats that they're wearing. They have their entertainer hat and they have their player hat, and his take as a judge is that...

...the player hat should always be the one that takes priority, you know, because ultimately you're player in that event, HMM, and you should be equally contributory to the the competitive environment of that event as any other player and have the same standards be help to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean not to an extent. I agree, right, because, like we don't want to necessarily discourage content creation, because I think pokemon just in general is so devoid of content creators. Like, just generally speaking, I would say we are generally devoid of content creators, and so I don't want to discourage people from streaming their matches. I think that's generally a good thing and actually in some ways promotes more transparency for the game, right, because because if they're streaming, like generally, you're not going to know that they're on a discord or it's going to be very hard to be on a discord call and stream without people knowing about it, you know, and there are a few other kind of, you know benefits of that, like you just get to see see physically and you get to experience it with them, and so it's going to be easier to see if there's any kind of, you know, fit foul play going on. But, yeah, I think we would both be in agreeance that. It just, I don't know, for competitive integrity and I think just for for events moving forward. I just feel like going with that hard line stance as yeah, like you said, player first should be uphell old and and maybe it's just a facade. Maybe it's just a facade, but I don't think we should, as a community say, you know what looked, it was fine and like hey, you know, I can jump. I should be able to jump on a discord call, like we should have that kind of those voices out there saying like no, that's that's wrong, like even if you're playing alone in these tournaments like that, that's kind of shady and you know, you shouldn't be doing that. Like we should, I think, hold that as the standard and if people do it, like we're not going to be able to police it, but we shouldn't have voices out there, very prominent voices I might add, saying yeah, everybody does it, so it's fine and we should just abolish all of the all the regulations surrounding it. That just boggles my mind, to be honest. I think, because the fact that it's unenforceable, it should just be allowed. But that should be a rule, right, that you can you can like talk to your friend in sure game supping. If it's not, if it's defined as shooting, we should take the hard stance and treat it is cheating. I think. I think it's. If it's defined as being allowed, then I'm totally cool with that and I actually think that is maybe more appropriate, because what I think is unfair is, you know, when you throw these people and everyone has like a different expectation for what they're allowed to be doing. You know, right, people who were like, Oh, I'm going to be a discord call with twenty people, you know, yeah, streaming, so that's not a big deal, and then you have people who are like, Oh, well, that's not allowed, so I'm going to be completely on my own out here and not even going to like Google a card see what interactions it has or something like that. Right, right, and and of course my stance is coming from you know, again, if it's outlined in the rules as being, you know, like TPCI guidelines. But I don't know, even then, like I almost feel like we should be having these tournaments under, you know, kind of like my mother mother rule book. You know, I just I don't think real life and online can ever be one to one. You know. Yeah, and you see this. You see this in like magic and hearstone as well, where, you know, people do get coached like during tournaments. But that's, yeah, and a loud thing. That's kind is some sure, a loud sure, sure, you know, even in the team challenge like that is explicitly something happened in the Team Challenge, obviously as a team based event, but you know, allowed for that extra I don't know, for the actual something, something to be like included inherently into the event structure. Well, actually, with the team challenge, I was talking with Neil about this, that team play was explicitly not allowed. Well then there's a lot of durings. WHO DURING QUALIFIERS? During Qualifiers, Oh, during qualifiers. Yeah, it's anyway. Either way, though, I think I think we kind of get into a conclusion, though, that rules. It should be followed and should be enforced to the appropriate letter of the law and intent of the the letter of the words behind those letters. But I'm still pretty hard line at like real life and online can't exist in the exact same definition. Sure, and I don't know if you agree that or not, but that's definitely my stance. I do I think I'm always going to be an idealist and think like Oh, yeah, you know, I, like I don't cheat, or I don't know I and maybe I have. Maybe, I mean, I guess I've played tournaments where I've had chat not on a...

...delay. So, like, I guess I'm guilty as well. But like, I also don't think I well anyway. But yeah, it's, you know, Italy. Ultimately it brings up a really good conversation about how to progress forward. I just think it's we get into really dangerous territory, especially when we go back to on in real life play of like yeah, cheating, you know, or going against like TPCI rule book and Code of conduct and is a good thing or encouraged right to do. Well, like I think that sets a very dangerous precedent for just like into the future, and that's why I'm hesitant to allow or to say like yes, we should allow, you know, or we should explicitly allow discord calls and, you know, coaching and things like that. It's just it feels very slippery. Feels very slippery, especially when we, you know, hopefully get back to irl play sometime soon in like you know, or even in like local leagues or like the Full Grip tournaments. Like it just feels it feels sketchy to me, you know, to say like yes, this should be something that happens. I don't know, it just I think it just because I got pokemon. Okay, and this is a bigger thing too, is like I've been playing for ten years. Pokemon develops a culture of players and I think that that is objectively true. If you look at the game of Pokemon versus the Games like magic, the gathering in Yu Gi oh. POKEMON has a culture and I think that that culture should be upheld to whatever degree it can be, even in an online space. So because of that, and and that's what makes pokemon special and unique and that's what keeps me coming back in a lot of ways is this culture. And so to take that culture and because we have covid almost throw it out the window and say, like that's not valued. That feels disingenuous to me to like the core principles of the game. So that's really why I when I hear, you know, cheating should be allowed or like this kind of conduct should be allowed like that, really makes me. Well, I think You'all trustraight, careful like thing. Cheating should be allowed because, well, right, and then it's intent is that it's not supposed. Yeah, of course, of course, of course, I understand, but it just said. I I do think ultimately, tag team is right on this, everyone else. But really I just I think the main point I want to drive home is that's this is the discourse we should be having. Is We should be talking about what should the online space be defined as and how should that you know, where is that going to be written, and how are we going to follow and enforce that? It should not be my friend was disqualified, or content creator I follow is just qualified, so I'm going to throw a fit about it. Yeah, you have to. You have to be more objective and reasonable than that. Yeah, I agree. So, anyway, it's I feel like, as you know, my take is especially problematic. I think I'll, I'm sure I'll hear some some comments about it after the cast. There you go, but there you go, and you know, have an opinion. I would say that as well. Like have an opinion on this, because it's pretty important in my going to develop one too, though. Well, true, no, no, like, don't just don't just spit out what we say. Don't just say a certain thing because a certain content creator says one thing or another. Like actually think about this, think about what you want for the game, Yep, and come with your opinion. That's that's a good point too. Is like what do you want for the game? What do you want the game to look like? I guess there's some like team collaborative aspect to it that's kind of interesting to, you know, look at, but I don't know, it just just feels feels dirty. Well, we do there, you know, you do know dhw. What's that? It's your card of the day. I do. Yes, yes, let's move on Card to the day. You know, this one is kind of it kind of feels like cheating. Okay, this one kind of feels like cheating because you get to look at it upon its hand. Yeah, yeah, you've I've become the cheater because I loved this card back in the day. You get to look at your opponent's hand and you get to do something with it. Love that for you. What do you think you get to do? Take all the trainer cars and shuffle them into the deck? Oh, not quite, not quite. Keep going, I'm trying to think. One of their cards like interacted through opponent's hand and you actually look at it. Just Discard and energy card you find there. Oh, not quite. Okay. So this is this is the portrait smearcle allows you to choose a supporter card you find there as a Polka power and use the effect. Yeah, yeah, it us the effect of this card, is the effect of this power. So you can, like back in the day, this was so it was such a funny card because you didn't know whether it was going to be...

...good or bad. Like it was generally a good card, right, like eighty percent of the time. That clarify, as you had to use a support yes, yes, yes, yeah, so, so you had to use a supporter off this poka power if you use smargl ed and so there was there was like an eighty percent chance at the card that you found the supporter card in your opponent's hand was a good one, or at least you'd have a choice. Right. There's poke, my collector back in the day, which was a very common target from portrait it but there are also things like N or, Professor Oaks new theory, which would shuffle your hand back in and draw a certain number of cards which you might not have wanted because you were looking for, you know something, or they also had professor's research or I guess at the back they're professor juniper at the time, and so that would discard your hand. So it's like, oh no, there were times where all my importance exactly exactly where your kind of body by a portrait. You're like, Oh man, I'm hoping for a collector. Oh wait, I had to, you know, research away all my rare candies, and so yeah, it was high risk, I reward in some cases and really a fun card to play with, because the other thing too about smeargal is that you could use multiple so like you could go once meargal portrait and you found, you know, professor o Smith Theory is you shuffle your hand in, get six and then you could like retreat into another smeargal portrait again. Oh they have professor of smuth theory shuffle and it get six, you know, retreated to another smeargal to do it against. You could see, you know, eighteen cards in a turn or more with your portrait of plus your own supporter. So it's kind of how something that was everything again. Well, it wasn't even an ability as a Polka power, sure so, but yeah, it was. It was super funny and I just loved that. It was like on a on a lesser played card or a lesser played pokemon like smear goal is just very forgotten, I feel like. But to give it such a cool pok of power that belonged in almost almost every deck around that time was really neat. Portrait smargle is gooded for sure. That's a really yeah looking card too. It's so fun. It's so fun. That's a that's a good pick. That's a good pick. I was thinking of cuts this and team y'ell ground team team rockets. What which one was that? or You just scarved from the hand? Yeah, that wasn't tea team Yeo gruns from the field team rockets, grunt, it was he the lowland one skull grunt teams, skull grind? Yes, there we go. Thank you. Ten types, are you? Thank you, ton of types, freaks. There's too many teas now. True, true, I'm getting old. That's right. Awesome, awesome stuff. So our last topic for today, as promised last week, we wanted to talk about the objective deck and kind of give our thoughts on it as a tool. So, for the UNINITIATED, the objective deck is a website that just came out. We had, I forget, I forget, the Nice fellows named Mikey. Mikey was a statistician. He's very interested and how to kind of like apply, want to apply, quantify, like apply informatics to Pokemon and, you know, kind of level up the gameplay that we have available to us. so He created this tool. That basically what it does is it parses your tcge oh logs and it finds out certain information about the game, such as like how many cards you drew, like how many energy you attashed for, how many knockouts you took versus how much damage you did, and kind of averages those. The I think, the real you can do it on a single game, but the idea is that you average it over an aggregate of games and can start to gather find some trial information about, you know, how your deck does and wins versus losses. Yeah, and kind of the gout where to make adjustments from there. So, JB, I'm curious. You know, we talked about doing this the other week, so I'm sure you have thoughts. What are your initial impressions on the tool? I think it's overall good. I would say that with any sort of data driven tool like this, that it doesn't guarantee performance because of course you have to have your in gameplay be good. And like, if you're uploading bad game logs, like you know, you're just going to get bodied you know, because it's going to tell you results that are not consistent with you know what what should actually happen. Right, if you're misplaying and you upload that Game Log, well, you know your kind of boned or like. Similarly, if your opponent misplays and you upload that log, well, you know, same issue. Right. You're having kind of a conflict there, but I will say overall good tool. However, you know, the the kind of data driven idea, you know, popularized by like the the movie money ball and that whole Oakland athletics, you know, data driven, you know, player performance.

They never want a world series with that model. So like it's not you know, I think they're there were a few things that I was seeing on twitter. It's like, Oh, you know, this is going to change the game, it's going to it's going to, you know, revolutionize the game, and some players were even kind of heralding it as a way to, you know, like almost save themselves, you know, and and I think to it agree that's true. But change the game, I think as a little higher praise. Like I'm very excited for this tool and the opportunities that it presents two players. And I think one thing that you're going to see that's a very obvious data point that is good to look at is win percentage going first or second. I think that will be, for a lot of players, yeah, a very important piece of data that they can pick out for their testing. And so, yeah, I was actually going to specifically reference that data point as well. I think that, yeah, that might be the most useful one on the page. So I have a couple of takes and I'm gonna going to go through them. I'll first answer your question in chat. So in terms of data types. There's basically I can run through the basically the whole subset of them. There's basically cards drawn, there's amount of energy attached, there's amount of times that you attacked and what turney started attacking, how much damage you did, how many knockouts he took, and then it kind of does some like some mathematics on the averages of those or like how those relate to each other. So you have like energy efficiency, which is kind of like how many energy you attached versus the knockcasts that you took to win the game, stuff like that. Yeah, so, but basically it takes those main like core data points and then does some math against those in different ways. So my first take is that I think this is as as it is designed right now. It is a more useful tool for a new player than an experienced player. Sure, I think a lot of these data points can be kind of extrapolated or posited just from having like kind of a fundamental knowledge of the game. So a good example of that is in the introduction video that you shadow rider is kind of like a dummy deck that they they ran some games on and posted the logs for shadow rider. When you win games has bad energy efficiency because you attach a lot of energy. But right, does not mean you should change the deck because you were drawing were cards by attaching energy, which is what is letting you win the game. Right, right, right. Another example is, you know, cards drawn. Like you can pretty reasonably pose it with a deck like shadow rider or Rickquaysa or any deck really, that you were likely drawing more cards in the games that you went right. That doesn't necessarily directly relate to your game play. It just means that the games that you win you're turboing through your deck more, you're seeing more stuff. Right, you have access to more of your deck. Yeah, the data point that I think is particularly useful is is the first versus second, because I think that's something a lot of people lack clarity on right now. Yes, and I think that's the thing that that even experienced players could benefit from. Is that particular data point. I think some of the things like energy efficiency, like energy acceleration, kind of missed the mark for me. Like I can I can extrapolate pretty quickly that shadow rider and Senti scorch with welder and dark box accelerate more energy to the board than ers food right, or have like worse energy efficiency or whatever. That, to me isn't like super meaningful, right. What I wish the debt. What I wish the site offered, and I hope that they continue to enhance it, because I think the idea is good. I think that data is more applicable to a card game than to, you know, baseball or yes, yeah, sure is. I like how the cards relate to each other. Right, like an example I was talking about with my friend today that I think would be really interesting would be like if you turn one research for this, turn one Marnie, which how which one wins you more games? Sure you know how many of your knockouts are taken with boss's orders versus like knocking out what's in the active sure, like those are things that I'm interested in that I think you could still isolate from a game log, but need to be like more explicitly built out. So I think there's like lots of enhancements that still need to be made for the tool to truly be where it needs to be as a stands right now. I think a lot of this could be done with like good tracking of your testing right where you like keep your spetchy and like say, if you want, did this, that or whatever, and and if you are lost. Yeah, kind of like we typically do, like leading up to world...

...championships for large events. But I do think the first for a second is pretty useful. So, over all my points, I think there's a lot of enhancements to be made. There's a lot of interesting data points that aren't captured in the data set right now. I do another one of my takes is that I do agree the data is kind of like corrupted, so to speak, by you know, maybe stub optimal gameplay or even like, you know, concessions, things like that. Like a concession like messes up the data, right, because the Games being completed, like you need to get every game through completion. Yeah, yeah, that's another thing too write because, like a baseball game isn't ending early for the most part, right so, but a game that because there are a lot of times, right, we're an opponent conceats too early. You see it all the time on the ladder and of course you know you could always can't concede, righte like if you know you're in a losing position, but you want to get the data, you need to like keep laying right right. That's all sort of about the game. But then, like you're also getting less to points. So yeah, no, I mean, of course, like it's going to be the most useful in and in a competitive setting, right, where you're taking those data points from, you know, tournament wins or losses. But yeah, like you said, there's I mean there's always going to be issues with with any data, and so we'll just have to see just how much the tool gets used, and I hope it does, how much the tool gets used to give, you know, community wide feedback, right, because hopefully this project is just not an individual based project, because it would be really nice to see a similar thing. Not only it would be, you know, nice to see not only like your results, but your results paired with, you know, the masses of results and like even maybe, and this is kind of difficult to do but certainly possible, like breaking it down into certain matchups, you know, going first or second in certain match of certain Tech Cards in certain decks, which limitless kind of has as well. But I think it's what the tool needs, though, is it needs to have that soun sort of like more discrete analysis to get it all the way they're like it needs to analyze how the cards relate to each other. Yeah, exactly, there, exactly. So, as a stand summary of my takes, the data could potentially be bad. Is a lot of confounding factors if not analyze properly. Know how to read data, like, know how to interpret data as well. If you're going to use this tool, like don't take every single number at face value, like bigger number better. That's not always true, right. It's better for new players as a stands right now, and I really really hope that they kind of use it to like aggregate data more, not just at the individual level, but taking a lot of people's data and like compiling it and figuring out something larger and more meaningful from a larger set. Yep, absolutely. So those are kind of my I think there's a lot of potential there and honestly, I wish they would kind of like it'd be great if they did like an application like I could scrape your logs in real time or or hope, or made it open source, so like people could, you know, make their own kind of queries, right, like if I wanted to write a query for Sycamore versus Marnie on turn one, like I could maybe do that. Like I think there's so much potential there and so I think it's a good idea, but it's not all the way or it needs to be yet to be like the most useful tool. Yeah, totally, completely agree. Awesome. I'm I wanted to say that as I want to talk through that after I saw the videos so I'd have like this is like my main thoughts coming out of it. But I do give lots of props to Mikey, especially in his development team, for like actually developing a reasonable web tool in, you know, relatively short time frame. I mean, for the most part it can't hurt, you know, any of those tools. Like it can't hurt. I mean I guess there's a there's a weird alternate world where, like the data is is being skewed so much by the players that they actually think that, you know, worst plays are better, you know, like per halfs, that that could work like. Because you also have to think like the general masses of players, like do people generally play? You know, people don't generally play perfectly right. So how does that affect things? Because I will that. Yeah, but I mean it's just an interesting thought right, like if everybody's chooses to go second, if everyone chooses to go second just out of habit, then that's going to influence the data because all of the data games are going to be people going second, you know. So it's just it's very interesting and I'll be interested, interested to see how it plays out. What a noncommittal answer. It is very noncommittally, but it can't hurt. I mean it's going to be a generally good tool. Like we said, those few data points I think are going to be immediately helpful and then as they build the site out more, which we both hope they do, should be able to gain some more insight. You know, I think getting at the DQ and optimal deck, I really just think we need to take sixty cards, our opponent takes sixty cars. You run it through a computer simulation that plays a million like optimal games back and forth, and whichever deck one more...

...is the better act in that way. Yeah, I think that really actually a really interesting format for a tournament. If, if I'm you know, if objective deck ever gets to that point where they can run those kinds of simulations of decks, that would be very interesting to see that like where being a tournament entirely on metagaming, right, because you could never actually, you know, if you never, if you took playing out of the equation, AAn, what would that look like? I think that'd be fascinating. I think as think that's the only way that pokemon can can be more forward, you know, but take the player out of it. The logical, yeah, the logical endgame is just entirely deck building and metagaming. I think that would be fun in its own way. I would be really fun. Yeah, I hope we get there well. Thank you all so much for listening today. It's been an awesome episode of TAG team. If you like this episode, or if you didn't, be sure to rate and review on your favorite podcasting platforms and Gw. Where can they find us? They can find us twitchtv slash munner. Every Wednesday night. We're recording on Tuesday, so forgive us for that, but every Wednesday night and thirty it's every time. We say same time, storing place. The week before we do it it's a different time and then they can they can find they can find me at t whitchtv slash flex daddy righteous for more gameplay. They can also find us on twitter at tag team Pokemon for the podcast, and then at smiles with riles and at Real John Walter. Awesome. Well, you all are the best. We appreciate every single one of you who listens every single week or if you're listening for the first time or if you're spread a listener. We appreciate all of you and we will catch you all next time pace see you.

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